Alan,
this might come across a little stronger than I intend it to and if so I apologise in advance.
The problem with your last reply is that it is not based on what was said but rather based on statements altered/invented by you to suit your argument. I dislike it when someone deliberately misquotes to suit their POV. Where did I ever say it was 'easy'. Also Steve did not mention anything about the USA in his original post to which I replied.
I find it is a shame you should chose to use this type of argument as it cheapens what is a valid point of view.
Steve also goes on to mention that organic courses will use seed and sod but so do most courses using chemicals. I concur with him that if they buy this in then it will have probably been handled with chemicals at some stage so with sod the obvious thing is to home grow and maybe even the seed can be home produced (intensive but not impossible if needed on a small scale).
Jon
Jon
Firstly my post was not an attack on you or anyone else and I'm not really sure if you read my post properly, secondly I take offense to
"The problem with your last reply is that it is not based on what was said but rather based on statements altered/invented by you to suit your argument. I dislike it when someone deliberately misquotes to suit their POV." and that
"you should chose to use this type of argument as it cheapens what is a valid point of view" as that was not my point or intention, so since you figured it was going to come across stronger than intended maybe you should have waited to post the tamer version;)
I apologize for saying it's 'easy' as it was the incorrect word (am I really going to fight about semantics?) although you do insinuate it from the experiences that you mention and statements like
"It is possible to produce very high standard playing conditions without chemicals so the ‘members clubs without high expectations’ jibe is off the mark." don't help by being a very factual comment but without a disclaimer that it doesn't work everywhere. I'm not arguing that it can't be done, it's just that it's a lot easier in some areas than it is in others, which needs tot be stated.
Since this thread was resurrected on Dec29th you have argued that from your personal experience that
"True Organic programs will suffer turf loss and the remedy will be to sod or seed the affected areas." is not correct (post 186) and that
"I have worked on a few courses in several countries and in this time I have never had to use either an insecticide or fungicide. In non of the cases have I had to use much sod or seed." My initial point was to refute that in saying that while not in your experience do organic programs possibly require more seed/sod to repair damage, that, that is not necessarily the case especially when location is factored in. I am not arguing with your experiences or your subsequent posts however the line
"I am just growing in my latest course at the moment (seeded last May) and have not used any chemicals to date including fertilisers. This is without an irrigation system. I suspect I will have to use a herbicide at some point if the clover gets out of hand though" sticking out out at the end of the post certainly gives the impression that it's possible to go almost 100% organic anywhere since the location is not mentioned, which we know is not possible and that was my point. Unfortunately I -wrongly- substituted 'easy' to say that and gave you the wrong idea of what I was saying.
Also fwiw I know Steve C and since he's US based so I used the example of over here and, specifically where I'm currently based, but to also to add to Steve Os comment that it's not just warm season turf but cool season turf being managed in the transition zone where the climate is not always optimal for cool season turf. Again I'm a huge fan of organic turf maintenance however right now there is still the need for chemical usage to provide the conditions required of usand until there's a fundamental change in golfers expectations that will not change.
Alan