Karrie Webb course design

[Shane Gurnett]

From today's Melbourne Age:

Australia's best golfer, Karrie Webb, is set to break new ground in the sport - literally and otherwise - by becoming the first woman to design a championship golf course in this country.

It will be announced today that Webb, 27, has won the job to complete a new nine holes at Keysborough Golf Club in Melbourne's east, complementing the existing 18-hole layout.

The $100 million development will be the prelude to another, larger design project in Queensland.

In entering the traditionally male domain of golf course architecture, Webb will be following in the footsteps of many of the game's finest players - Jack Nicklaus, Arnold Palmer, Greg Norman and Peter Thomson among them.

Keysborough general manager Jon Gahan said yesterday that he, and the club, had little doubt Webb would be as successful in building courses as she was in tearing them apart.

"In a male-dominated field such as golf course design, there's no reason why a woman can't make a similar impact," he said.

"Karrie is Australia's greatest woman golfer and has been at the top of her class for a long time. Because of that, she provides a significant marketing tool for the club.

"This will be her first venture into design and one day, if she makes a career out of it, we can always hang our hat on the fact that Keysborough was Karrie Webb's first project."

Webb is in Melbourne for this week's $500,000 Australian Open at Yarra Yarra, accompanied by her American agent from International Management Group, Jay Burton.

The Queenslander is scheduled to give a news conference today to discuss, among other things, her foray into architecture but she recently told The Age that design held a growing attraction for her.

"I'd like to be able to dabble in it, to get my name out there so when I slow down with golf, I'll have that interest," Webb said.

"Not to the extent that Greg or Jack or Arnold Palmer do it. But it would be an interesting challenge - something to do with the game that I don't know much about right now."

Does anyone know who's going to design it for her?

[bm]

yadayadayada

just another IMG course with help from their new buddies, TWP.

what a bunch of marketing mumbo jumbo- why anyone buys this is beyond me.

[Jeff Mingay]

Webb's long-time caddie is a very good friend of my brother.

He only recently told me that Karrie was receiving requests to "lend her name to course design", but was not interested in getting involved until she knew more about design, and had the time to spend on design projects. Having heard that story on recently, this development is a surprise to me...

My suspicsion is, "Money talks!" And IMG probably needs that money more than Karrie does!

[Mike O'Neill]

That's some poor marketing mumbo-jumbo. Some marketing genius dropped the ball and did not get to Karrie in time with the mumbo-jumbo handbook before she admited that design is something "that I don't know much about right now". No doubt at the news conference she'll rebound with a flurry of poignant cliches from the middle of the handbook, the section that covers everything from "God intended this land for a new nine holes" to "we want the new nines holes to test the skills of golfers with all levels of ability". On the upside, her honesty is refreshing and maybe that will translate into a genuine study of golf course design, from turf issues to drainage to bunker construction to all the rest. If she gives it the effort that she gives her golf game, best of luck to her.

[Richard_Goodale]

"Australia's best golfer"?

Methinks that even Peter Thompson could wax her today, from the tips.

[Lisa Luigs Morrissett]

Now, now Rich. . . . the quote was Australia's best woman golfer

[Richard_Goodale]

Lisa

She might actually be able to wax Thompson, or Norman, or O'malley, but Shane_g's quote was gender non-specific.

Cheers

Rich

PS--how's the sprog?  Showing Karriesque tendencies yet?

[Craig Van Egmond]

Its good to know that she has time to dabble with golf course architecture. I'm sure that the real architects appreciate that.

[Ed_Baker]

I hear Mark McGuire is designing baseball parks too!

Geezus,when will this crap stop!

[Chris Kane]

Karrie Webb has the best record of any Australian golfer at the moment, which you can't argue with.

Has any other Australian won all four major titles?

Can't see the point of speculating about her design ability - we havn't seen anything yet.

[APBernstein]

"Not to the extent that Greg or Jack or Arnold Palmer do it. But it would be an interesting challenge - something to do with the game that I don't know much about right now."

That is one scary quote.  I ask you, what club in their right mind would hire someone to build them a golf course in a 100 million dollar development when designing golf courses is something they "don't know much about right now".

Wait, what's that?  She won't actually be designing it?  Oh, in that case...

[Brian Phillips]

From today's Melbourne Age:

"Karrie is Australia's greatest woman golfer and has been at the top of her class for a long time. Because of that, she provides a significant marketing tool for the club.

"This will be her first venture into design and one day, if she makes a career out of it, we can always hang our hat on the fact that Keysborough was Karrie Webb's first project."

"I'd like to be able to dabble in it, to get my name out there so when I slow down with golf, I'll have that interest," Webb said.

"Not to the extent that Greg or Jack or Arnold Palmer do it. But it would be an interesting challenge - something to do with the game that I don't know much about right now."

I think it is positive that the project has come clean and said that she isn't really going to design the course but is going to put her name to it.  That is two different things.  I have nothing against a touring pro being involved in such projects so long as the architect gets most of the credit for the design work.

The project says that her name is a marketing tool, again being honest about it is good.

It is also positive that Karrie Webb is admitting that she is not an expert at all but is willing 'to dabble' as she mentions.

Hopefully the architect's name will also be given out soon.  At the moment I don't see anything negative with any of this.  Compare it to Chart Hills and I never see Steve Smyers name mentioned anywhere in any advertising.

If they have been this honest so far I would be surprised if they didn't come forward with the architect soon.

Good luck to her.  I have nothing against people having ago.  You never know she might be a younger version of Alice Dye who also was a very good player in her day.

Brian

[sk]

The "architect" is IMG.

The designer - probably Brit Stenson from Cleveland,Ohio

He does all IMG - at last count, O'meara, Montgomerie, Vijay, Woosnam, Langer, Faldo (before), Appelby - on and on.

Hes very busy I hear.

[Brian Phillips]

SK,

I understood it that IMG are the project developers.  They have deal a deal with European Golf Design.  EGD have two or three designers including Stan Eby who I think has worked with the aboved mentioned players in Europe.  Stan did the remodeling of some of the bunkers at Lytham.  If you go into the website you see what work they have done with these players.

Other architects include:

Andrew Haggar
Tim Lobb
Ross McMurray
Russell Talley

www.egd.com

or

you can go directly to the joint venture area:

http://www.egd.com/jointventure.htm

Cheers Brian.

[Justin_Ryan]

According to pga.org.au, it is being done by "Australasian Golf Design, a joint venture between IMG and Golf Course architects Thomson, Wolveridge, Perrett are part of the team working with Karrie Webb in the course design."

It is just another housing development, and since TWP are doing the nearby Sandhurst project, the marketing people presumably felt a different name on the real estate sales billboard would be a good idea.  From what I've seen of TWP, Karrie may actually be able to show them a thing or two.

[Mike Duffy]

I am a member at Keysborough and I have watched the history of this deal unfold closely.

Originally the deal was stitched up by Greg Norman Design with his corporate backers, Macquarie Bank.

IMG then, in its usual manner, went to the owner of the land and offer it a better deal, so exit Norman and partners and enter IMG with their newly acquired design partners, TWP.


Ms Webb is admired for her golfing prowess, and her record speaks for itself. However, the general consensus is, Ms Webb couldn't draw a straight line without the aid of a ruler, and she has admitted as much.

As everyone else has noted, this is just the typical nonsensical, rapacious marketing flotsom and jetsom for which IMG has become renowned.

The deal involves not only the nine new holes, but also an upgrade on the original Sam Berriman design, or what is left of it, dating back to 1948.

The house lots will be selling for around $300,00 each, replete with a tunnel under Hutton Road connecting the old with the new, a new clubhouse, upgraded irrigation sysem, a new and bigger carpark, a gymnasium, a starters hut, new pro shop and the aforementioned redesign of some holes on the existing 18.

From last reports all paperwork is in now in order, so the starting date may not be far away.

I don't have much time for IMG, as anyone who has read my posts over the years here and elsewhere would have concluded, so at the end of the day the members at KGC shouldn't complain too loudly if they feel "screwed".

For mine, I would have invited Michael Clayton, John Sloan and their buddies in for a good revamp, but I guess that's way too out-of-date to invite traditionalists in to tidy up a course that has been altered for the worse by well-meaning committees over the years.

 ::)Now let's sit back and watch the saga unfold . . . . . . .

[MikeClayton]

Mike
Good luck.

[Kelly R.]

I think everyone is being a little too hard on Karrie.  Giver her a chance.  Of course, it doesn't suprise me that everyone her is so prejudice.  

When Richard Simmons first got into the weight loss field he was considered a kook and look how successful he is now.  Similarly, Oscar Wilde ended up being a tremendous author after being locked up and laughed at early in his career.  

I think you'll find that many of today's stars on the LPGA will end up as golf course architects.  Amy Alcott and Patty Sheehan are just a couple of names that come to mind.

[RJ_Daley]

See my response on the Taliban thread!  Kerrie and the other pro golfers, male or female must not be called "architects" out of simple courtesy and respect for the real architects and their profession.  Even some of our greatest and most knowlegeable and proven golf course designers shy away from calling themselves architects.  Can we PLEASE STOP USING THAT TERM IN THE SAME BREATH AS WE USE PRO SIGNATORIES TO DEVELOPMENT NAMES!!!  

[Brian Phillips]

I have to agree with RJ here.  Anyone who is not a landscape architect or does not have a degree in some sort of architecture cannot really call themselves an architect.  The other reason many do not call themselves architects is because of lawsuits.

Karrie Webb or any other Pro who is getting into design should really be called a golf course design consultant.  

Eventually when you get to Weiskopf's standard or Jack Nicklaus or Tom Doak or Dye can you start calling yourself a designer.

[Justin_Ryan]

Brian
I don't have any problem with a pro golfer calling themselves a designer, as long as they actually design the courses.  Whether they are as good as Weiskopf or Doak or just plain terrible is irrelevant.  As Tony Ristola has pointed out previously, a better description of what we have going on with many of these "signature" golf courses is fraud.

[Paul Daley]

Cousin R.J:

You're on the money yet again! The terms, while interchangeable at times, should generally be kept apart as a mark of repect to those architects who have successfully completed related disciplines/degrees.

This is not to say designers are not excellent "architects"; as we know, some of the best practitioners come from this segment.  

Re: Karrie Webb ... she is the best Australian golfer (male or female) in my opinion. More than a few class her as the best golfer of either sex in the world, but an equally strong case could be made for Sweeden's AS right now.

[the bigger picture]

The one thing about this whole issue regarding Karrie and her involvement in this project is the scant disregard the promoters of her involvement have given to Jan Stephenson's role in design consultancy on her own project in the US and her commitment to learning as much as he can about the business.

To suggest as the press release has that Karrie is the first woman to become involved in golf course design is another example of IMG never letting the truth spoil a a good story.

Having said that good luck to Karrie

[Tony Ristola]

Brian:

I do agree there are tour pro's and others calling themselves architects who simply could not be because they couldn't accomplish the work in planning or construction (whether doing it themselves or leading the effort).

But...what about those without degrees and becoming members of an architects association?  Are they architects?  Just because a fraternity of golf course designers/architects decides these people fit their mould, can construct golf courses and are their kind of people.

What about other competent individuals who have learned by doing and have no desire to join such a fraternity?  They are not architects?

[Brian Phillips]

Tony,

Here is the description of the word architect from the The new Oxford Dictionary:

Architect: noun, a person who designs buildings and in many cases also supervises their construction.

- a person who is responsible for inventing or realizing a particular idea or project: the architects of the reform programme.

So by the looks of it I am wrong and anyone can call  themselves a 'golf course architect' if they have 'designed' one.

Design: noun, a plan or drawing produced to show the look and function or workings of a building, garment, or other object before it is built or made.

So if a person can produce plans that show how his or her design is going to work then they can be called an architect.

I think the explanation of design was good...to show the look and FUNCTION or WORKINGS of a building, garment, or other object BEFORE it is built or made.

Pretty simple, really...nice design...now show me how it is going to work....and...show me how you are going to build it...

Cheers Brian