Seminole

[TEPaul]

"TEPaul,
The Seagrapes are a necessary buffer."



A necessary buffer for what?




"PS.  from a great drive on # 3, only 210 to the center of the green, I made a difficult downhill, sidehill 6 footer for an 11."



Nice drive and nice putt, Pat. Don't worry about what happened in between. Plenty of us lose our concentration and take about a ten minute "walk-about" when we start thinking about having sex with Heidi Klum.  

[Bill_McBride]

I have never had the good fortune to play Seminole, but have to say that 5th green is one the scariest I've ever seen.

And from Pat's tale, #3 might be pretty dicey too............

My club member Downing Gray and our pro came back from Seminole a couple of years ago after playing in some kind of pro-am and told me some stories of putting green / bunker ping pong in the wind on greens running 13 in strong winds that made my blood run cold.

[Patrick_Mucci]

"TEPaul,
The Seagrapes are a necessary buffer."

A necessary buffer for what?

The "Sea", the salt air, and the wind.
Have you ever noticed the waxiness of the leaves ?

"PS.  from a great drive on # 3, only 210 to the center of the green, I made a difficult downhill, sidehill 6 footer for an 11."

Nice drive and nice putt, Pat. Don't worry about what happened in between. Plenty of us lose our concentration and take about a ten minute "walk-about" when we start thinking about having sex with Heidi Klum.  

Why do you assume that I was "thinking" rather than "remembering" ?   

I can assure you that I was concentrating on every shot.

In fact, I hit two of the best bunker shots of my life from the same bunker, the back right bunker to a back hole location.
I had hit my approach to what I thought was about 8 feet from the hole, only to find out that the ball just trickled into the bunker.
I choked up on my L-wedge, hit a great shot of about 3 feet that just landed on the fringe, then rolled next to the cup, then kept on rolling, almost stopping at the crest of the ridge, then continued rolling to the edge of the green, then off the green down into no man's land, up against a small palm tree.  I tried a reverse putter and whiffed, took a few more stabs then hit a shot back into the same bunker, except this time I had a down hill lie.  I hit a PERFECT bunker shot, landing on the upslope of the fringed slope leading to the bunker, but, the ball kept on rolling and rolling and rolling, until it was finally stopped by the fringe at the far end.  I then putted up, 6 feet past the hole, and made the downhiller that would have led to another dozen strokes had I missed it.

The funny thing is, that as I was standing in the fairway, a scant 210 from the center of the green, I warned my playing companions to make sure they hit their approaches to the right of the pin.  I said, "you can't believe how many idiots hit perfect drives like mine and end up making 12's", hence, I focused on that downhill, sidehill 6 footer like it was a life or death putt.  I had made up my mind that I wasn't going to be a prophet.

On several holes, balls were degreened.
# 3, # 7, # 9, # 11, # 12 and # 18 proved to be overwhelming putting challenges for those not used to those slopes and greens.
Getting above the hole was equivalent to a death sentence, and recovering from degreened putts wasn't easy either.

But, despite the toll the greens and surrounds took on our group, we loved every minute of it.
 

[TEPaul]

"Why do you assume that I was "thinking" rather than "remembering" ?    "



Patrick:

I assume it because during one particular pillow talk session Heidi assured me she was an extremely exclusive girl. On the other hand, she did happen to mention there is almost nothing she wouldn't do for the opportunity to play Seminole. Speaking of opportunities to play Seminole, did I ever tell you the Marla Maples (Donald Trump) story?

[JMEvensky]

 did I ever tell you the Marla Maples (Donald Trump) story?

Was she referring to you when she said "best sex I ever had"?

[Chuck Brown]

"Why do you assume that I was "thinking" rather than "remembering" ?    "



Patrick:

I assume it because during one particular pillow talk session Heidi assured me she was an extremely exclusive girl. On the other hand, she did happen to mention there is almost nothing she wouldn't do for the opportunity to play Seminole. Speaking of opportunities to play Seminole, did I ever tell you the Marla Maples (Donald Trump) story?

Sir, you have my e-mail address.
To paraphrase you, there is almost nothing I wouldn't do for a Marla Maples-Donald Trump-Seminole story.

[TEPaul]

Chucky B, my boy, for you anything.

[Shannon Wheeler]

I'm not sure I can do my post justice, none the less I had the opportunity to play Seminole today.  I wish more clubs followed Seminole's lead as a golf club.  Never have conditions outside the the golf course itself, impacted a round I have played. I was truly humbled as a golfer today and enjoyed every second of it.  I only hope to return one day. By the way I birdied #4 (we won't talk about the other 17).

[Patrick Hodgdon]

Shannon great to hear you enjoyed the finest golf Florida has to offer.

Wasn't today the final day of The Coleman? That's about as tough as the course can be or so I hear.

[Patrick_Mucci]

Shannon,

That's a GREAT birdie in any wind.

I played there a week ago and the conditions were fabulous.

One of the many things I like about Seminole is how the balance of the overall challenge evens out, no matter what direction the wind comes from, even though many holes play quite differently versus the prevailing winds.

I'm trying to figure out, from which wind direction would the course play the most difficult ?    Easiest ?

[Shannon Wheeler]

What I was amazed at is how the course suckers you into thinking it will be somewhat benign with the first and tenth holes however it quickly brings you back with #2 and #11.  I'm just glad the pin location was not in the front on #11 today.

[Shannon Wheeler]

It was also quite amusing to pick up my GMC Sierra front and center in front of the round about in the driveway on my way out!

[Patrick_Mucci]

Shannon,

I think # 1 is under rated because the pin seems to be in fairly benign locations whenever I've played there.

A good friend of mine, who played with us, routinely hits 280-300+ yard drives.
I drove it about 60 yards from the green, he was only 35 in the right side of the fairway, pin mid green, far left. 
He made a quick 6.  He hit a nice low shot that took a hard bounce and rolled over the left side, then down and away from the green, left his recovery short, chipped on and two putted for six and his day was done.

# 10 can also kill a round if you start there.

My friend hit a good drive that trickled into the water, took a drop, hit it to the right of the green, pin left, three putts, another 6.

It gets narrow as you get closer to the green.  I hit a great drive down the right side, a knock down 10 feet and missed the putt and was happy with a par.

Another fellow we were playing with hit a terrific approach from the right rough, but, it was a little low, hit the green, ran up to the pin, past the pin, rolling over the crest of the putting surface then onto the downslope, into the water, quick 6.

If you're not careful, either or both of those holes can kill a round because your level of expectation is that of birdie or par at the worst., but again, if you're not careful or mis-hit any shot, a double can come into play.  Front and back right pins on # 2 and # 11 are an enormous challenge when the greens are F&F which they usually are.  Hal Hicks, Tim Neher and the club do a great job at producing wonderful playing conditions for those who love golf.  It's got to be one of the most enjoyable courses for every level of golfer, even though the course gets exponentially tougher as you get closer to the cup.

[Shannon Wheeler]

Patrick,

I had an 8 footer for birdie on #1 and burned the right lip so I thought I might get the best of her.  I feel Mr. Ross put every aspect of danger immediately in my way.  I found the front bunker on #5 and was very happy with my 4.  I hit the green on #16 slightly left of the front right pin placement and had a 60 footer.  The three footer on #11 for par broke my spirit. I play on fast greens every day in Jupiter, however the subtle breaks on the greens at Seminole were difficult to navigate even though the caddies were spot on all day.

[Wayne Wiggins, Jr.]

"I'm trying to figure out, from which wind direction would the course play the most difficult ?"

The last time I played there, the wind was directly off the Atlantic for most of the day.  Our host remarked that he thought this was one of the tougher directions, especially when the pin is up front on #2 and/or #11, which play down-wind.  Plus, it makes the short #12 long and really makes #17 and #18 difficult.     

[Patrick_Mucci]

Wayne, each general wind direction, N,S,E and W have their impact on play, easier and more difficult.

If you go through the hole by hole influence of those four wind directions, each hole is impacted, but, the overall balance of the challenge seems to remain the same.

I think that's what's so unique about Seminole.

Irrespective of the wind direction the overall challenge of all 18 remains about equal, but the challenge presented by each hole changes dramatically, without an overall distortion.

The generous fairways are of great help to all levels of golfers, irrespective of the wind direction, and that's a big plus.

[Patrick Hodgdon]

Wayne, each general wind direction, N,S,E and W have their impact on play, easier and more difficult.

If you go through the hole by hole influence of those four wind directions, each hole is impacted, but, the overall balance of the challenge seems to remain the same.

I think that's what's so unique about Seminole.

Irrespective of the wind direction the overall challenge of all 18 remains about equal, but the challenge presented by each hole changes dramatically, without an overall distortion.

The generous fairways are of great help to all levels of golfers, irrespective of the wind direction, and that's a big plus.

Patrick-

We had wind coming out of the west/southwest the day we played. It was straight downwind on 7. My usual score is about 85 and I shot 83 that day. I also had a very funny round by my standards in which I was +2 on the 10 par 4's and +9 on the 8 par 5's and 3's. Usually it's the other way around as my length is an advantage on the 5's and I finish those around even but was +5  on them that day. Having only played it one time I would guess that this is an easier wind if there is one.

My guess as to the hardest wind direction would be coming from the northeast corner of the property as it really only helps you directly on one hole, the already tough #17 (and being downwind the "help" itself on that hole is questionable) and maybe a little on the approach shot on #3 and on #15.

You definitely are correct in the routing's genius being in that the sum of the challenge throughout the 18 is pretty close to equal no matter the direction of the wind and yet each hole's particular challenge can change from easy to extremely difficult depending on the particular direction. I also think that with the routing's genius in the constant turning (never more than two holes in the same direction) causes the wind's effect on the challenge to create a nice ebb and flow to it during the round, almost like the waves themselves crashing on the shore on the other side of the dune.
 

[Patrick_Mucci]

Patrick,

Many attribute Ross's use of the two ridges as the "genius" of the design.

I see genius in the overall balance of the design irrespective of the direction of the wind, which is almost always blowing.

Any northern wind may be the most difficult due to the mental impact of playing three out of the first four holes into a good wind.
Playing 1,2 and 4 into the wind can have disastrous results and ruin your round and your disposition early.

The same could be said for your start on the back nine.
You could be easily 4 or more over par after playing # 10 and # 11.

Plus, during your warm up session on the range, that wind could easily make things go wrong early.

[JC Jones]

Patrick,

Many attribute Ross's use of the two ridges as the "genius" of the design.

I see genius in the overall balance of the design irrespective of the direction of the wind, which is almost always blowing.

Any northern wind may be the most difficult due to the mental impact of playing three out of the first four holes into a good wind.
Playing 1,2 and 4 into the wind can have disastrous results and ruin your round and your disposition early.

The same could be said for your start on the back nine.
You could be easily 4 or more over par after playing # 10 and # 11.

Plus, during your warm up session on the range, that wind could easily make things go wrong early.

I think you are missing the impact of a north wind on #13 as well.  A miss would most likely be short/right, one of the more difficult recoveries on the course.  It would help on your second shot on #15, however, giving one a better chance at hitting the green in two. 

[Patrick_Mucci]

JC,

The Condo and the tall trees bordering the left side of # 13 tend to buffer or stifle a good deal of the wind that would otherwise terrorize golfers playing # 13, that's why I didn't mention it.

# 16 play extremely difficult into a north wind, and even though it's downwind, # 17 is also difficult in terms of hitting and holding the green.

[JESII]

Pat,

Would you agree that the shifting winds play a disproportionate role on the par 3's?

Maybe that's a no-brainer because 100% of their non-putt shots will be directly impactd, but these 4 holes seem to vary tremendously (an independently) based on the wind.

A hole like 17 with a gentle S - SW wind is very playable, but with a hard East wind is near impossible to get on the green and the bunker shots are no bargain.

#5 is going to be difficult anytime the green is firm, but due to the deflective nature of the green, any strong wind shrinks the overall effective size pretty significantly.

[Patrick_Mucci]

Pat,

Would you agree that the shifting winds play a disproportionate role on the par 3's?

That's only four (4) holes, not 18.

But, yes I would say that, only because two holes are played north to south, with the other two east to west and west to east.
If one of the north to south holes was south to north, a perfect balance would be more likely.

Maybe that's a no-brainer because 100% of their non-putt shots will be directly impactd, but these 4 holes seem to vary tremendously (an independently) based on the wind.

A hole like 17 with a gentle S - SW wind is very playable, but with a hard East wind is near impossible to get on the green and the bunker shots are no bargain.

I think otherwise.  With a "hard" wind from the East, it would be likely that your ball would end up in the right greenside bunkers, leaving you a recovery back into the wind, which I think is much easier that recovering to the green with a hard tailwind.

# 17 is no bargain with NO wind.
It gets exponentially more difficult with wind and increased wind velocity.

#5 is going to be difficult anytime the green is firm, but due to the deflective nature of the green, any strong wind shrinks the overall effective size pretty significantly.

I think that's true of # 5 and almost every hole at Seminole and especially # 17.

The roll-off nature of the perimeters of every green effectively shrink them WITHOUT the wind.
With wind, the shrinkage is far more pronounced.
# 17 probably plays about 1/3 its size.

But, something troubles me.
When you see scores in the 90's by very good amateur golfers in a competition, you have to wonder if the combination green speeds and hole locations haven't gone over the top, especially when it's windy, which it almost always is.

[JESII]

You see it every year in the Coleman...for whatever reason...maybe these guys are repeatedly deceived into aiming for hole locations along the edge of the green because they don't remember how close the bunkers are...

[Patrick_Mucci]

You see it every year in the Coleman...for whatever reason...maybe these guys are repeatedly deceived into aiming for hole locations along the edge of the green because they don't remember how close the bunkers are...


The bunkers aren't that close to the hole locations, but, the crown like greens with the fall off perimeters on the putting surfaces, combined with the slopes on the sides of the greens coupled with the concave bunkers that the slopes lead into, effectively deceive the golfers into a false sense of security.

But, they wouldn't know that unless they lurk on GCA.com