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Jud_T

  • Total Karma: 0
Golf Course Prerequisite for Joining a Club
« on: April 11, 2010, 08:00:27 AM »
After learning the hard way by playing 200+ rounds on a Doak 4 club that I was a member of, I'm wondering what everyone's thoughts are regarding the quality of golf course necessary for a club you'd join.  I realize that most people in the real world join their town's country club primarily because of convenience, for the pool, because all their neighbors belong, etc...but for those of us who are a little more serious about the golf, or are just obsessed, what is the minimum criteria of GCA for considering ponying up for a membership?  Obviously cost is a consideration for all but a select few, but lets set that aside for the purposes of this argument.  My contention is that I'd need at least a Doak 6 for a local golf club and probably a Doak 8 for a National or Overseas membership.  For those who haven't belonged to a club for 10+ years, remember, assume you'll be playing 25-50 rounds a year on the same track for many years (10-20 for an out of town club)...Purely in terms of golf course architecture, what would you look for?

Golf is a game. We play it. Somewhere along the way we took the fun out of it and charged a premium to be punished.- - Ron Sirak

PCCraig

  • Total Karma: -2
Re: Golf Course Prerequisite for Joining a Club
« Reply #1 on: April 11, 2010, 08:22:27 AM »
Jud-

I would say as long as the course is fun and enjoyable for you individually, that is all that matters when joining a new club on the golf side. For me personally, I like playing very hard golf courses every once in a while but in the long run if I had to get beat up every time I went to the club I would quit golf.

 For a national membership type of place the golf course just has to get you pumped up to play it enough to travel a long way 2-3-10 times a year to see it.

H.P.S.

Terry Lavin

  • Total Karma: -2
Re: Golf Course Prerequisite for Joining a Club
« Reply #2 on: April 11, 2010, 08:37:48 AM »
The Doak system is just fine for evaluating golf COURSES, but you need to convert to the Lavin grading system to evaluating golf CLUBS.  There is quite a difference, obviously.  I've been a member of four different clubs over the years and have been lucky enough to play a lot of private clubs as well.  I'll attempt to supply the factors for the ten-point system below:

The Golf Course:  The golf course is a key factor in the enjoyment of a club.  It needs to be interesting, enjoyable and capable of a demanding set-up.  It need not have strong architectural bona fides, but it sure doesn't hurt!  It should be a place that you would want to "play everyday" if need be.  0-3 points.

The Other Facilities:  Food, beverage, tennis, pool and driving range are the main factors here.  If any or all are offered, they should be of sufficient quality to warrant your own personal use/consumption and to offer it up freely to your family and invited guests.  The absence of some of the above is in no way a potential hindrance to a good rating here.  I'm a member of the Dunes Club and it has no tennis, no pool and just a net for warm up.  The cheeseburgers, brats and hot dogs are cooked on a gas grill by the assistant pro.  But the place is absolutely heaven, despite the lack of fancy food or the other amenities.  0-2 points.

The Employees:  This is a key factor that is overlooked by many people who join private clubs.  You want to be a member of a club where you are capable of establishing friendships with some employees.  Doesn't mean that you'll become bff, but you want the type of people who do their job with eagerness and self-respect, the kind of self-respect that is not accompanied by fawning, sycophantic service.  You want real men and women who work and play hard.  Fun and inspired.  0-2 points.

The Members:  This is the last three points on the scale.  They have to be your kind of people.  I prefer clubs that have a fair amount of diversity, but that's me.  This means not only racial, ethnic and religious diversity, it means economic diversity as well.  Obviously, it takes money to be a member of a private club, but that doesn't mean that everybody is a member of the lucky sperm club.  I like clubs with contractors and CEO's, politicians and doctors, lawyers and insurance salesmen.  I like it when some of the members caddied at the club as kids and where others grew up as junior members.  I like it when there are members who have institutional knowledge that is not a mirror for standoffishness.  Finally, it has to be a club full of guys that you want to play with regularly.  The kind of place where you don't always play with the same handful of guys, but where you wind up playing with a whole bunch of guys over the course of a season.  0-3 points.

If one can join a club that has a Doak 5 and a Lavin 7, that just might be better than a Doak 10, because being a member at a place with a perfect golf course doesn't mean that you'll necessarily be a happy member.
« Last Edit: April 11, 2010, 08:39:42 AM by Terry Lavin »
Nobody ever went broke underestimating the intelligence of the American people.  H.L. Mencken

Chip Gaskins

  • Total Karma: 0
Re: Golf Course Prerequisite for Joining a Club
« Reply #3 on: April 11, 2010, 08:42:13 AM »
Well said Terry!

John Moore II

Re: Golf Course Prerequisite for Joining a Club
« Reply #4 on: April 11, 2010, 09:13:51 AM »
I would say find a course where you can have a lot of fun. I'd rather be a member of a course that was a Doak 2 on a secluded site than a 6 that was routed through a housing development. And I'd rather be at a place where I can associate with people that I can relate to and get along with. So, its all in what you want. As far as a club that you'd travel a long distance for, go for the golf course only I'd say. You're not traveling for 8-10 hours to have a good time with the pro or necessarily eat at the clubhouse. You're going to play golf; make that your deciding factor.

But for the daily course, just find one that is very fun to play and one you can enjoy.

Scott Warren

  • Total Karma: 0
Re: Golf Course Prerequisite for Joining a Club
« Reply #5 on: April 11, 2010, 09:22:56 AM »
Terry took the point I was going to make and made it better than I ever could have. Well put.

Rick Sides

  • Total Karma: 0
Re: Golf Course Prerequisite for Joining a Club
« Reply #6 on: April 11, 2010, 09:37:31 AM »
Jud,
That is a good question you bring up about clubs.  I am a member of a club that is about a 6 on the Doak scale.  Terry brings up a good point also about the difference between the course itself and the club. There are several things I like about my club like it's ten minutes from my house, the course is a lot of fun, the food at the club is good, and it's easy to get a tee-time. Unfortunately the membership is not that great.  There are some older men that are very nice people however, a lot of the younger guys are "new money" and  what I mean by this term is they think they are entitled to things because they have some money.  A lot of these new money guys sit around in the club house and are very, very loud and brag about their scores( which are usually nowhere near accurate to what they shot) and offer silly bets with each other.  So I guess its up to you what you really want in a club.  I believe you should spend a day or two at the club before deciding.

Tim Nugent

  • Total Karma: 0
Re: Golf Course Prerequisite for Joining a Club
« Reply #7 on: April 11, 2010, 09:41:35 AM »
Terry, nicely stated.  As a preamble, I would suggest one should 1st do a little self-introspection as to Why he is wanting to join a club in the 1st place.  Get a club that reflects your priorities.  Finally, look at the books.  Know what it costs to run the place and what debt -if any, the club is carrying.  Also, get a handle on what capital improvements have been made recently and how they were funded.  Plus, ask to see any long-range Master Plans.  If you love the place the way it is but there is a plan showing some later divergence (that you will be asked to pay for) you may want to take a pass.  Conversely, if it shows some fixes to things you agree with, that might sway you into joining.  I would also ask to see the membership roster for the past decade.  Look for trends as to membership numbers.

I feel too many join clubs blindly, only to find out the realities too late.  Do your homework and don't be afraid to interview them.  Ask the tough questions.
Coasting is a downhill process

PCCraig

  • Total Karma: -2
Re: Golf Course Prerequisite for Joining a Club
« Reply #8 on: April 11, 2010, 10:08:24 AM »
The Doak system is just fine for evaluating golf COURSES, but you need to convert to the Lavin grading system to evaluating golf CLUBS.  There is quite a difference, obviously.  I've been a member of four different clubs over the years and have been lucky enough to play a lot of private clubs as well.  I'll attempt to supply the factors for the ten-point system below:

The Golf Course:  The golf course is a key factor in the enjoyment of a club.  It needs to be interesting, enjoyable and capable of a demanding set-up.  It need not have strong architectural bona fides, but it sure doesn't hurt!  It should be a place that you would want to "play everyday" if need be.  0-3 points.

The Other Facilities:  Food, beverage, tennis, pool and driving range are the main factors here.  If any or all are offered, they should be of sufficient quality to warrant your own personal use/consumption and to offer it up freely to your family and invited guests.  The absence of some of the above is in no way a potential hindrance to a good rating here.  I'm a member of the Dunes Club and it has no tennis, no pool and just a net for warm up.  The cheeseburgers, brats and hot dogs are cooked on a gas grill by the assistant pro.  But the place is absolutely heaven, despite the lack of fancy food or the other amenities.  0-2 points.

The Employees:  This is a key factor that is overlooked by many people who join private clubs.  You want to be a member of a club where you are capable of establishing friendships with some employees.  Doesn't mean that you'll become bff, but you want the type of people who do their job with eagerness and self-respect, the kind of self-respect that is not accompanied by fawning, sycophantic service.  You want real men and women who work and play hard.  Fun and inspired.  0-2 points.

The Members:  This is the last three points on the scale.  They have to be your kind of people.  I prefer clubs that have a fair amount of diversity, but that's me.  This means not only racial, ethnic and religious diversity, it means economic diversity as well.  Obviously, it takes money to be a member of a private club, but that doesn't mean that everybody is a member of the lucky sperm club.  I like clubs with contractors and CEO's, politicians and doctors, lawyers and insurance salesmen.  I like it when some of the members caddied at the club as kids and where others grew up as junior members.  I like it when there are members who have institutional knowledge that is not a mirror for standoffishness.  Finally, it has to be a club full of guys that you want to play with regularly.  The kind of place where you don't always play with the same handful of guys, but where you wind up playing with a whole bunch of guys over the course of a season.  0-3 points.

If one can join a club that has a Doak 5 and a Lavin 7, that just might be better than a Doak 10, because being a member at a place with a perfect golf course doesn't mean that you'll necessarily be a happy member.

Terry-

Well said. Spoken like someone with extensive experience joining golf clubs!
H.P.S.

Sean_A

  • Total Karma: 3
Re: Golf Course Prerequisite for Joining a Club
« Reply #9 on: April 11, 2010, 10:09:38 AM »
I spose my breakdown of Terry's system is rather more like

5 course: I have to find it enjoyable to play and walk on a weekly basis and so it must be playable 12 months a year - this is critical.  A course out of action or drag to play because of poor drainage is out of the question.  Same probably goes for a course under snow 4 months a year - not what I want to pay for.  
2 membership: I have belonged to four clubs in the UK and one in the States.  Golfers are generally good people and I don't worry about this.  However, I do like the opportunity for throw-ups and lots of comps where I can meet loads of different folks so I would only worry about too much of "set" groups.  
1 employees: They are what they are.  Its lovely if they are exceptional, but it isn't a make or break deal for me.  
2 house/amenities: A decent place with decent food is all I really need.  I don't want to see loads of money spent on non-golf items or fancy soap in the lockeroom.

Of course, if the course is really exceptional, I would probably make allowances in the other departments to join!

Ciao
New plays planned for 2025: Ludlow, Machrihanish Dunes, Dunaverty and Carradale

Steve Strasheim

  • Total Karma: 0
Re: Golf Course Prerequisite for Joining a Club
« Reply #10 on: April 11, 2010, 10:15:48 AM »
"I never get bored playing this course".

Look for the club where members say this.

Tim Nugent

  • Total Karma: 0
Re: Golf Course Prerequisite for Joining a Club
« Reply #11 on: April 11, 2010, 10:19:49 AM »
Terry, with 4 clubs on the resume, what caused you to look for greener pastures - so to speak?  I curious because why one "unjoins" a club may be more important than why one joins.
Coasting is a downhill process

Tim Martin

  • Total Karma: -1
Re: Golf Course Prerequisite for Joining a Club
« Reply #12 on: April 16, 2010, 10:24:46 PM »
The Doak system is just fine for evaluating golf COURSES, but you need to convert to the Lavin grading system to evaluating golf CLUBS.  There is quite a difference, obviously.  I've been a member of four different clubs over the years and have been lucky enough to play a lot of private clubs as well.  I'll attempt to supply the factors for the ten-point system below:

The Golf Course:  The golf course is a key factor in the enjoyment of a club.  It needs to be interesting, enjoyable and capable of a demanding set-up.  It need not have strong architectural bona fides, but it sure doesn't hurt!  It should be a place that you would want to "play everyday" if need be.  0-3 points.

The Other Facilities:  Food, beverage, tennis, pool and driving range are the main factors here.  If any or all are offered, they should be of sufficient quality to warrant your own personal use/consumption and to offer it up freely to your family and invited guests.  The absence of some of the above is in no way a potential hindrance to a good rating here.  I'm a member of the Dunes Club and it has no tennis, no pool and just a net for warm up.  The cheeseburgers, brats and hot dogs are cooked on a gas grill by the assistant pro.  But the place is absolutely heaven, despite the lack of fancy food or the other amenities.  0-2 points.

The Employees:  This is a key factor that is overlooked by many people who join private clubs.  You want to be a member of a club where you are capable of establishing friendships with some employees.  Doesn't mean that you'll become bff, but you want the type of people who do their job with eagerness and self-respect, the kind of self-respect that is not accompanied by fawning, sycophantic service.  You want real men and women who work and play hard.  Fun and inspired.  0-2 points.

The Members:  This is the last three points on the scale.  They have to be your kind of people.  I prefer clubs that have a fair amount of diversity, but that's me.  This means not only racial, ethnic and religious diversity, it means economic diversity as well.  Obviously, it takes money to be a member of a private club, but that doesn't mean that everybody is a member of the lucky sperm club.  I like clubs with contractors and CEO's, politicians and doctors, lawyers and insurance salesmen.  I like it when some of the members caddied at the club as kids and where others grew up as junior members.  I like it when there are members who have institutional knowledge that is not a mirror for standoffishness.  Finally, it has to be a club full of guys that you want to play with regularly.  The kind of place where you don't always play with the same handful of guys, but where you wind up playing with a whole bunch of guys over the course of a season.  0-3 points.

If one can join a club that has a Doak 5 and a Lavin 7, that just might be better than a Doak 10, because being a member at a place with a perfect golf course doesn't mean that you'll necessarily be a happy member.

Terry-Great post. That really is a great rundown of what to look for when joining a club. I have been at a number of privates that have a great course but know quickly from the conversations going on in the locker and or grill rooms that the club would not be for me as a member. If you can only find a handful of guys that you want to play with then you are at the wrong place.