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MCirba

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Who did Fownes get so much right?
« Reply #25 on: June 11, 2016, 10:56:41 PM »
This is a cool thread but I'm also more interested in where the Fownes dad and son learned architecture and perhaps more importantly, how they learned to create gteens like that!   
"Persistence and determination alone are omnipotent" - Calvin Coolidge

https://cobbscreek.org/

Carl Rogers

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Who did Fownes get so much right?
« Reply #26 on: June 12, 2016, 09:25:58 AM »
Oakmont:
1 observation/opinion .... growing up in the American South and living exclusively in the Eastern half of the US, the absence of trees (even just a tiny handful) is to me a very jarring and unnatural landscape.


1 question
1. After 8 or 10 rounds, could a 6 handicap, from the +/-6400 yard tees, break 80 at Oakmont?
I decline to accept the end of man. ... William Faulkner

Don Mahaffey

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Who did Fownes get so much right?
« Reply #27 on: June 12, 2016, 11:30:51 AM »
As the owners of the courses in question, they didn't have to be concerned about what others might think, if they didn't want to be.  Too many architects live in fear of doing something radical and never finding work again.  If you want to actually follow your instincts, you have to be willing to live with the consequences.

Powerful quote.

To "live with the consequences" seems to require an artist's approach.

The current market for architects instead puts an emphasis on the technical, especially the technical as it relates to conditioning as conditions drive the bus anymore. The lay person may not appreciate architecture, especially subtle architecture, but he is more than willing to critique conditions. 
I see a lot of talent out there, young and up and coming in addition to the stalwarts, but many seem to be tethered to one "look" or approach as taught by their mentors, and some tethered to the look and the overly technical, as that seems to bring some sort of credibility.

I believe the artist's approach, the willingness to live with the consequences, applies to the technical side as well as most all the technical processes we use nowadays create constraints that water down the art. Long story short, its the people that matter more than the standardized processes of the modern era, but that is not the contemporary approach to quality control, system management, or golf creation in many cases. Because we forget it is an art and we allow to many experts from different fields to educate us.

The Fownes didn't have to deal with the modern constraints we allow to choke our art, chances are they didn't allow the manageable constraints of their time to choke it either.
« Last Edit: June 12, 2016, 11:44:23 AM by Don Mahaffey »

Tom_Doak

  • Karma: +3/-1
Re: Who did Fownes get so much right?
« Reply #28 on: June 12, 2016, 11:50:03 AM »
The current market for architects instead puts an emphasis on the technical, especially the technical as it relates to conditioning as conditions drive the bus anymore.

I believe the artist's approach, the willingness to live with the consequences, applies to the technical side as well as most all the technical processes we use nowadays create constraints that water down the art. Long story short, its the people that matter more than the standardized processes of the modern era, but that is not the contemporary approach to quality control, system management, or golf creation in many cases.


What are all these technical things you speak of?  I'll admit to being a bit of a Luddite in such matters, but it hasn't seemed to hurt me much in my career -- indeed, as you suggest, maybe it's helped?

Peter Pallotta

Re: Who did Fownes get so much right?
« Reply #29 on: June 12, 2016, 12:18:42 PM »
The irony being, it seems to me, that when you are prepared to "live with the consequences" those consequences usually turn out to be positive ones -- especially for *you*.  The warnings that we hear about "the consequences" usually come from people with no skin in the game, or from those who would much prefer -- purely for their *own* sakes/benefit/wallets/ careers -- that you *not* follow your instincts.   In other words, I've grown convinced that the "risky" move is also the "smartest" one.
Peter 

Don Mahaffey

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Who did Fownes get so much right?
« Reply #30 on: June 12, 2016, 12:26:52 PM »
The current market for architects instead puts an emphasis on the technical, especially the technical as it relates to conditioning as conditions drive the bus anymore.

I believe the artist's approach, the willingness to live with the consequences, applies to the technical side as well as most all the technical processes we use nowadays create constraints that water down the art. Long story short, its the people that matter more than the standardized processes of the modern era, but that is not the contemporary approach to quality control, system management, or golf creation in many cases.


What are all these technical things you speak of?  I'll admit to being a bit of a Luddite in such matters, but it hasn't seemed to hurt me much in my career -- indeed, as you suggest, maybe it's helped?
Maybe the word technical is not exactly correct, but whether it is that or construction process, I think it drives a lot of the art.


Sand capping - I don't know how many times you've sand capped, probably not many because of your drive to work on good sites with good soil, but my observation is that some in the business approach sand capping as a requirement on anything but ideal soil resulting in much more material hauling, more haul roads, more site disruption, more drainage, and almost no micro contouring. Contractors love sand capping because of the added budget it requires and it is so easy to get the slicked off finish so many love.

Irrigation - the thinking that the entire golf course must have a highly efficient and uniform application of water, all done under the code word of "control".  Why, in the far north or the rainy SE does the outer roughs require the same irrigation as the center lines?

Drainage - focus on engineering storm drainage and use of basins instead of the more artistic use of open ditches and surface drainage.

Top soil management - maybe this ties into sand capping, but if you want to see a major golf contractor furrow his brow, tell him you want to do a "top soil" job. The "modern" approach to top soil management seems to be that you can destroy it and then easily remediate it with some amendments. I don't think it is that easy in most soils.

Standardized methods of construction - USGA putting greens recommendations are just that, a recommendation. I do believe it is important to understand the principles behind these recommendations, but I also believe we should use available technology to adapt construction and maintenance techniques to make use of local materials. A putting green is a turf system and understanding how that system needs to function is more important than using the same recipe across the entire world.

My point is I believe there are creative ways to solve all these issues that not only may result in a more artistic golf course, but one that costs less to build and maintain.. The question is, when you create a "system" like a sand capped fairway over a compacted subgrade with herringbone drainage, have you created a system that is longer lasting and less expensive to maintain, than if you had built that same fairway on a clay loam, protected the top soil, and created artistic surface drainage? I think the sand cap is viewed as easier to maintain, but is the extra resources required worth it and what are the artistic trade offs? I think that is the question to be asked with each item. 



Forrest Richardson

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Who did Fownes get so much right?
« Reply #31 on: June 12, 2016, 12:46:23 PM »
Less is more — perhaps not always, but in many cases as Don makes his point.


At Oakmont — the subject here — Jack Snyder re-designed and re-built the No. 8 green in 1952 and hauled Allegheny River sand up to form the greens mix. I do not believe he added any organics as this was rarely his approach. Jack not only was matching the other greens at the time, but he was going with what worked — and what made economic sense. Perhaps the savings allowed OCC to buy more swimming pool chemicals! ::)
 
 
« Last Edit: June 12, 2016, 08:10:07 PM by Forrest Richardson »
— Forrest Richardson, Golf Course Architect/ASGCA
    www.golfgroupltd.com
    www.golframes.com

Joe Bausch

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Who did Fownes get so much right?
« Reply #32 on: June 12, 2016, 07:31:42 PM »
Oakmont:
1 observation/opinion .... growing up in the American South and living exclusively in the Eastern half of the US, the absence of trees (even just a tiny handful) is to me a very jarring and unnatural landscape.

1 question
1. After 8 or 10 rounds, could a 6 handicap, from the +/-6400 yard tees, break 80 at Oakmont?

Answers:

The views from the clubhouse and higher points are long and beautiful.  I'm not a fan of isolated holes.

I have no doubt a 6 handicap would break 80 at Oakmont fairly quickly. . .especially with a good caddy like I had.

 :)
@jwbausch (for new photo albums)
The site for the Cobb's Creek project:  https://cobbscreek.org/
Nearly all Delaware Valley golf courses in photo albums: Bausch Collection

John Foley

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Who did Fownes get so much right?
« Reply #33 on: June 12, 2016, 08:18:19 PM »
I would agree w/ Dr. B - I found Oakmont to be VERY playable. Not with US Open rough but regular playing conditions & especially with a good caddie a 6 could break 80.


How much of what we will see next week should we attribute to Fazio?
Integrity in the moment of choice

Terry Lavin

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Who did Fownes get so much right?
« Reply #34 on: June 12, 2016, 08:50:52 PM »
My limited time at Oakmont left me impressed with the ground hazards like the drainage ditches with annoying fescue that seemed omnipresent. Bill Pennington had a nice piece on these devilish features in today's NYT. Worth a read.

http://mobile.nytimes.com/2016/06/12/sports/golf/us-open-oakmont-country-club-ditches.html
Nobody ever went broke underestimating the intelligence of the American people.  H.L. Mencken

Tom_Doak

  • Karma: +3/-1
Re: Who did Fownes get so much right?
« Reply #35 on: June 12, 2016, 09:31:47 PM »
Maybe the word technical is not exactly correct, but whether it is that or construction process, I think it drives a lot of the art.


Sand capping
Irrigation
Drainage
Top soil management
Standardized methods of construction

My point is I believe there are creative ways to solve all these issues that not only may result in a more artistic golf course, but one that costs less to build and maintain. The question is, when you create a "system" like a sand capped fairway over a compacted subgrade with herringbone drainage, have you created a system that is longer lasting and less expensive to maintain, than if you had built that same fairway on a clay loam, protected the top soil, and created artistic surface drainage? I think the sand cap is viewed as easier to maintain, but is the extra resources required worth it and what are the artistic trade offs? I think that is the question to be asked with each item.


OK Don, thanks for clarifying.


Oakmont, of course, was not sand capped wall to wall like most architects would do today once they saw the soils.  Nor are there any catch basins that I've noticed.  And of course no USGA greens.  Amazing that it works at all, isn't it?


Most of the things on your list are things I try to avoid like the plague.  They drive up the cost of construction considerably, and you have to spend so much time dealing with all of them that you don't have any time left over to think about building cool golf holes.  Plus, it's harder to build cool golf holes if you have to build them in multiple layers and make tie-ins all around every hole, whether it's USGA greens or sand capped fairways.


We both know why things are done the way they are, though ... so architects don't have to think hard about the best approach every time out, so they don't have to risk a liability suit if the superintendent struggles with growing grass after they leave, and so the overall budget justifies a higher fee for the designer and a bigger profit for the contractor.  Even my own guys have complained about the first bit every once in a while ... they call it "reinventing the wheel on the fly," and it can cause them some headaches, even though it's always resulted in a better product at a lower price for the client.


But, to bring this back to Oakmont, new designers don't mind reinventing the wheel and finding better ways to do things, because they aren't locked in to whatever they think is the path of least resistance.  Unfortunately, though, occasionally clients try to do this on our behalf, suggesting methods that we know aren't going to work out.  Less expensive ways to clear a site are usually the most costly of the lot.

Forrest Richardson

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Who did Fownes get so much right?
« Reply #36 on: June 12, 2016, 11:36:47 PM »
I do believe No. 2 is now a USGA green. There may be others. No. 2 for certain was fully rebuilt — and I cannot image it was built with native sand, etc.  if someone knows otherwise, please alert the press.
— Forrest Richardson, Golf Course Architect/ASGCA
    www.golfgroupltd.com
    www.golframes.com

Sven Nilsen

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Who did Fownes get so much right?
« Reply #37 on: June 13, 2016, 12:09:56 AM »
Almost every green had been rebuilt and remodeled from their original form by 1925.  Exactly what that entailed I don't know.


Sven
"As much as we have learned about the history of golf architecture in the last ten plus years, I'm convinced we have only scratched the surface."  A GCA Poster

"There's the golf hole; play it any way you please." Donald Ross

William_G

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Who did Fownes get so much right?
« Reply #38 on: June 13, 2016, 12:58:18 AM »
Maybe the word technical is not exactly correct, but whether it is that or construction process, I think it drives a lot of the art.


Sand capping
Irrigation
Drainage
Top soil management
Standardized methods of construction

My point is I believe there are creative ways to solve all these issues that not only may result in a more artistic golf course, but one that costs less to build and maintain. The question is, when you create a "system" like a sand capped fairway over a compacted subgrade with herringbone drainage, have you created a system that is longer lasting and less expensive to maintain, than if you had built that same fairway on a clay loam, protected the top soil, and created artistic surface drainage? I think the sand cap is viewed as easier to maintain, but is the extra resources required worth it and what are the artistic trade offs? I think that is the question to be asked with each item.


OK Don, thanks for clarifying.


Oakmont, of course, was not sand capped wall to wall like most architects would do today once they saw the soils.  Nor are there any catch basins that I've noticed.  And of course no USGA greens.  Amazing that it works at all, isn't it?


Most of the things on your list are things I try to avoid like the plague.  They drive up the cost of construction considerably, and you have to spend so much time dealing with all of them that you don't have any time left over to think about building cool golf holes.  Plus, it's harder to build cool golf holes if you have to build them in multiple layers and make tie-ins all around every hole, whether it's USGA greens or sand capped fairways.


We both know why things are done the way they are, though ... so architects don't have to think hard about the best approach every time out, so they don't have to risk a liability suit if the superintendent struggles with growing grass after they leave, and so the overall budget justifies a higher fee for the designer and a bigger profit for the contractor.  Even my own guys have complained about the first bit every once in a while ... they call it "reinventing the wheel on the fly," and it can cause them some headaches, even though it's always resulted in a better product at a lower price for the client.


But, to bring this back to Oakmont, new designers don't mind reinventing the wheel and finding better ways to do things, because they aren't locked in to whatever they think is the path of least resistance.  Unfortunately, though, occasionally clients try to do this on our behalf, suggesting methods that we know aren't going to work out.  Less expensive ways to clear a site are usually the most costly of the lot.

acknowledge

throw under bus

promote self

bash clients


for goodness sakes man, "I thought this was about Fownes"...he built one helluva a tough golf course, goal achieved
It's all about the golf!