[Ronald Montesano]

I'll start the thread with words from the horse's mouth.  Hopefully it can lead to an interesting thread.

Dr. Michael Hurdzan:

" Renaissance Park is indeed one of our projects which we did back in the mid-1980s and it was a heck of a learning experience.    I  worked with lots of folks on that project to include two engineering companies called Woolpert Engineering who was located in Charlotte and Law Engineering out of Atlanta.     First, part of the land fill  was before the days of heavily EPA regulated methods of landfilling so in places the garbage was over 100 feet deep and still green and decaying.    In fact the garbage was so green that they were still hauling to the site  in one location while we were trying to build the golf course in another.       There was only a little strip of land that was thought to be stable enough for the clubhouse and later it was found that methane was seeping into it through the basement walls.      We put the driving range on the newest and deepest part of the fill knowing it would sink over time, and tried to locate tees and greens on the more stable parts of the fill.    We had to be extremely creative for we could do no cutting only filling to create golf features and the bulk of the fill had to come on site from limited pond area  or small stockpiles, for there were only a couple of places we could cut to get construction material.      It was done on a relatively low budget and there were new problems cropping up daily.     On the first hole the City was supposed to deliver 5,000 cubic yards of fill to cover the pipe and raise the first fairway up but that didn’t happen so the first hole was the worst one on the property---next to the second hole that is.

 

It is not a Top 100 or even a Top 1000 golf course, some might  say not even a top 10,000, but I am very proud of what we accomplished and I learned a lot about landfill science and construction.    We have since done several other landfill golf holes or courses and advised others not to do some, but they rarely listen and end up with long term problems."

Please add what you have experienced/suspect about these types of projects.

[Tim Nugent]

Ron, I've been involved about 10 landfill courses and can relate to Mike's learning curve.  1st, by landfill, in the states that refers to a Sanitary or Garbage dump site (I've heard soil brought in from off-site as "Landfill" in England).  We builtand operated on for 15 yrsso I became intimate with how much different these are than courses built on in-situ sites.  In a nutshell - they move, constantly.  We used to joke, iyou never get bored with the greens 'cause the contours are different every year.
Although easch site is different in compostition, perhaps the one constant is they tend to require more repair projects mainly in drainage and irigation.  Because they are capped with an impervious material, water doesn't "soak in" and when the gound settles,  underground piping can loose positive pitch and basins can no longer be in low spots.
From a design standpoint, you have to know what to expect and design to accommodate it in the future. Not beng able to "cut" and having to rely on just fill (and poor quality fill) forces one to get really creative.
But on the positive side, after a while, all that settling tends to create some very cool and natural looking contours.

I just finished one up in Indiana (just outside Chicago) and have one on the boards for Helsinki.  Plus I just finished a hole with a 40' landfill right in the middle of a par 5 that needed a HDPE liner.

[RJ_Daley]

I'll be interested if you get many posts here with 'experience' and anything to discuss in the way of actual construction techniques.  Maybe more folks might have something ecologically to comment about. 

I took a GCSAA seminar from Hurdzan in about '92 in NOLA, and he even brought in some drafted hole plans of maybe this very site, for the class to use as study material.  He sure seemed enthusiastic about the overall concept of building GCs on landfills at the time.  Trying to interpret his comments above, it would seem he is far more sober about the process and desirablity to get involved in them now.  Maybe, I'm not reading it right.

I can personally relate to the whole methane thing, from the standpoint of having once been one of the first responders to an 8 unit apt building, wood frame construction, which blew to spintereens during a day when miraculously no one was home and no one hurt.  I brought that up in that class seminar, but can't really remember any specific response. 

The venting must be pretty elaborate in one of those projects, and the sidewall leachate that I've seen in one of our landfills here in my area where they have a retaining catch basin and system to reclean and recycle that crap is positively icky. 

But, Tim's comments are certainly interesting from one who has great experience.  Is there any GC that is of critical acclaim for the golf - not the ecology, that is on a landfill? 

[Kalen Braley]

RJ,

Both Metropolitan links and Monarch Bay are built on old landfill sites.  While they aren't of interest nationally, they are two really good public options in the bay area.  I recall several afternoon rounds at Monarch Bay with a foul smell in the air due to the odor release from below!!   

[David_Tepper]

Kalen -

While the Metropolitan was built on soil dredged from the Port of Oakland shipping channels, that soil was not placed on an existing garbage dump or landfill. In fact, the soil and sludge dredged from the shipping channels was dumped on an existing golf course. My guess is the (poor) quality of that soil is the reason why they have problems growing grass on some spots of the course.   

DT

[Kalen Braley]

Kalen -

While the Metropolitan was built on soil dredged from the Port of Oakland shipping channels, that soil was not placed on an existing garbage dump or landfill. In fact, the soil and sludge dredged from the shipping channels was dumped on an existing golf course. My guess is the (poor) quality of that soil is the reason why they have problems growing grass on some spots of the course.   

DT

Thanks David,

I stand corrected.  I knew they were working on that site for years and years, and I knew there used to be a really crappy course there before...I think it was called Galbraith.  But in the end I guess dredging material is better than old rubbish huh! 

[David_Tepper]

Kalen -

Yes, the Metropolitan is built on top of the old Lou Galbraith course. I think the Shoreline course in the West Bay (Mt. View?) was built on bona fide landfill.

It would be interesting to know what sort of results people have had in regards to growing quality turf on landfill sites. What are the most important factors to growing good turf on a landfill site?

DT

[Bill_McBride]

I believe Forrest Richardson's highly regarded Hideout in Monticello, UT was built on a landfill.

Looked up the course on Forrest's website.  http://www.golfgroupltd.com/the_hideout.html

It's not on a landfill but it is on recovered environmentally degraded land - a former uranium mine!  It's an interesting story, read about it on the link above.

[Ronald Montesano]

Widow's Walk in Scituate, MA and Diamond Hawk in Cheektowaga, NY are both built on old dumping grounds.  I believe the former is on a legit town dump while the later was more of an informal dumping ground that bordered railroad land.

[Kalen Braley]

I believe Forrest Richardson's highly regarded Hideout in Monticello, UT was built on a landfill.

Looked up the course on Forrest's website.  http://www.golfgroupltd.com/the_hideout.html

It's not on a landfill but it is on recovered environmentally degraded land - a former uranium mine!  It's an interesting story, read about it on the link above.

Bill,

And as a testament to what Forrest did there, I would have never guessed it.  Its a beautiful course and would have never known what lurked underneath if I wasn't told otherwise.

[Lester George]

Check out the story of Lamberts Point Golf Course here:

http://www.lambertspointgolf.com/

click on the "aerial photgraphy" link in the first paragraph. 

This was a milestone job for us because of all of the unique conditions of the site and the players involved. 

Lester

[RJ_Daley]

Lester, that looks like quite a project.  How long did you work on it?  Where was the material obtained for the soil caps and your fill requirements?  Was the obvious source, dredge material from the harbor? 

Given the nature of these courses on top of landfill sites, is it a bit of a liability for architects/engineers to discuss specific problems encountered, for fear of their frank discussion coming back to bite them if certain things go wrong in the future?  I imagine there must be quite a signing-off system required of the municipality on every aspect of the construction.

[Lester George]

RJ,

It took 2 1/2 years for design and construction if I recall.  No material was lifted from the Elizabeth River or the Bay.  The fill was "select" and fairly expensive even though it came from nearby. 

Landfills create certain opportunities for liabilitiies that other courses don't.  Mostly ball flight because they are generally void of vegetation and hardly ever big enough as was the case here.  The City of Norfolk really understood the challenges and took a very strong position of taking most of the risk.  If we saw anything we did not like, or were uncomfortable with conditions enough to have a discussion, they usually waived libility.  This was partly due to the history of the site and partly due to their enthusiasm to convert a brownfield. 

Lester

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