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Matt_Ward

A Coup for Nicklaus -- Ocean Hammock
« on: April 07, 2002, 01:07:58 PM »
Just got back from a trip to Florida. Took the time to play Ocean Hammock in Palm Coast -- halfway between St. Augustine and Daytona Beach.

The course is part of a major investment for those interested in living in the locale of Flagler County -- either as full time residents or second homes.

The Nicklaus Course at Ocean Hammock is one of the very finest I've seen from the Bear. The course is located as close to the Atlantic is one can be. You not only see the Ocean on a few holes but you feel it's immense presence (the day I was there a Northeast wind really stirred up the waters!).

Played the course from the tips (7,201 / par-72 / slope 147 / course rating 77.0 :o) and the course gives you a full range of shots to master. Clearly, the proximity to the ocean always means you must deal with Mother Nature and the constant wind.

Nicklaus didn't build 18 all-star holes and there are a few where you can make a low number without having to hit Golden Bear type shots (i.e. high fades that stop on a dime, etc.). On the flip side though are a number of holes that require total control of the tee shot and most importantly your iron play. A number of the greens are nestled on the tops of man-made mounds that fit well with the terrain. Nicklaus also presents significant decisions to be made on the tee shot. Do you want to be aggressive or conservative?

I find it hard to believe the course is only rated by GolfWeek as the 5th best public course in the Sunshine State. I see it battling for top honors with TPC / Sawgrass. Also GD rated the course only 10th ( ???) in its Best New poll for upscale courses this past January. Can't believe either situation.

The finishing four holes are among the best I've seen of Jack's work (incidentally the late Bruce Borland was Jack's main man on site ... FYI - Mr. Borland was one of the folks on board with Payne Stewart). The 15th plays 450 yards towards the ocean and the green sits high above the fairway -- miss short right and your ball runs merrily away because of the short cut of grass just off the green. You can bail to the left for a look-in chip shot so options do exist for different strategies.

The 16th is also a superb hole -- playing just under 400 yards the golfers is presented with an array of options depending upon if your have bull or parakeet b*lls. The green site is also marvelous as you must have a surgeon's touch to guide your ball correctly near the pin. One of the very best mid-range par-4's I've ever played.

The 17th at 174 yards is also dynamite -- playing towards the ocean the hole is set slightly below the elevated tee and the green is well protected in front and there are rear pin placements on either side. If you don't hit your approach true you will not hit the target because the natural distractions are there to throw you off.

And the finishing hole is simply a major league home run. Playing right alongside the ocean the hole plays 466 yards and requires your total attention. Even after hitting the perfect tee shot you face a demanding no-nonsense approach to a green diagonally angled from right to left with a lone bunker protecting the left. The green is slightly elevated and there is a grass hollow to the right and rear. Landing an approach near the pin demands total skill of the highest order.

Ocean Hammock is, in my opinion, a must play for anyone heading to Florida. Jack has faced many criticisms over the years but his work here is a tour de force. Off the top of my head I can clearly see Ocean Hammock being among the top five Nicklaus courses I've played.

I would be very interested in hearing from others who've played the course and what they liked or didn't like. ;)
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »

Ben Cowan-Dewar

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Re: A Coup for Nicklaus -- Ocean Hammock
« Reply #1 on: April 07, 2002, 01:33:25 PM »
Matt,
I was supposed to go down with a friend a few weeks ago, but had to cancel.

He had nothing but positive things to say about it and he is not Nicklaus' biggest fan.

I am looking forward to getting down there, but I had wondered what the weaknesses were given its poor placing.  

To your comment he didn't design 18 all-star holes, which were the weak ones?
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »

Tim_Weiman

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Re: A Coup for Nicklaus -- Ocean Hammock
« Reply #2 on: April 07, 2002, 02:32:37 PM »
Matt Ward:

Two well traveled friends of mine recently played the course and were very impressed.  I remember they particularly enjoyed the last several holes.
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »
Tim Weiman

Matt_Ward

Re: A Coup for Nicklaus -- Ocean Hammock
« Reply #3 on: April 07, 2002, 03:20:56 PM »
Ben, Tim, et al:

One of the criticisms that Jack has faced (rightly so at times) is the initial desire on his part to build holes that favor his type of game (high fades, very unforgiving, etc.). Although I like many of Jack's courses, I still am a big fan of the Geronimo Course / Desert Mountain in Scottsdale even though Lyle Anderson had Jack make some ill-conceived changes to the 13th and 14th holes. I can fully understand the feeling s of others who believe the difficulty meter should not be overly relied upon in hole-after-hole  in order to build the reputation of any course. Jack's early designs did this and I believe the criticism has been heard by the great man with some of his latest works.

At Ocean Hammock Jack has resisted the tendency to put together 18 post card holes. What you find so wonderfully at Ocean Hammock is a mixture of holes that ebb and flow -- you can score low on some holes when conditions permit but you will also find holes that just demand nothing less than your absolute best. Keep in mind, the differeing wind conditions will determine the specific personality of just about all the holes. When I played there was a northeast wind blowing at about 10-15 mph -- I was told, the general pattern during the summer comes from the south.

To elaborate on the give and take style of the course take the 1st hole is just 380 yards from the tips and if wind conditions are favorable (they were when I was there) you can be aggressive and flirt with the fairway bunker complex that guards this slight dog-leg right. Again, the hole isn't about being some massive difficult enterprise that Jack has done in prior courses.

The same applies to the 10th, which like the 1st, runs in a westerly direction. The hole is about 525 yards from the tips and if you hit a strong drive you could get home in two shots provided the second had some stop action on it since a greenside bunker on the right is well located. What makes both of these holes interesting is that YOU the golfer absolutely believe you should grab a birdie at either of them and maybe both. Just the expectation of this can cause mind games because both seem soooo easy. In Jack's early days as a designer I don't believe you would have seen such a thing. The holes I just mentioned are not hard -- but they don't just give it to you -- that's what an architect should do on holes that don't have all-world written all over them.

You also have a fine routing in which Jack keeps the holes going in different directions. Too many courses near the ocean / major lake in the USA play in a south-north, north-south pattern (Whistling Straits, The Ocean Course at Kiawah, Pac Dunes, etc.). The only stretch of holes that go in one direction for three holes are the 12th thu 14th and each of these is a different par.

The back bone of Ocean Hammock is the par-3's -- each is demanding and the lone easy one (dare I say) is the 4th. The other three are exposed and subject to the winds that come sweeping through the property. The par-3 8th is an absolute winner as you tee off right towards the Atlantic. When the pin is cut right and there is heavy duty WIND blowing you had better make sure the ball stays LLLL-OOOO-WWWWWW.

One last note deals with the configuration of the putting surfaces. Jack makes you really think hard about how aggressive you want to be at the tee. Lay too far back and you're left with a daunting and more challenging approach. A good example is the 468 yard 9th which runs right alongside the ocean. The player can take aim to carry a right hand fairway bunker. The reason? Success will mean a shorter approach and better angle. Play too far away from the right bunker and the ante just goes up big time. There is also a swale that just feeds away any approach that is short and left. If you think you have a great short game try up and downing it from that location when the pin is on that same side.

I'll say this again -- people with an open mind who want to see how an architect can evolve should see Ocean Hammock. Jack has designed a course that, in my mind, is vastly underrated because there so many people who see Jack from just one perspective. Ocean Hammock is a course that merits even higher fanfare and I am sure when others from GCA and other sources REALLY study it they will come away quite impressed. I know I can't wait to play it again in the very near future.

« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »

Tim_Weiman

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Re: A Coup for Nicklaus -- Ocean Hammock
« Reply #4 on: April 07, 2002, 03:28:21 PM »
Matt Ward:

My friends are neither big Jack fans or critics.  They just came away with the same feeling you have expressed.  Neither participate here at GCA, but they do get around, both here in the States and in the UK, one being an R&A member.  They both suggested I go take a look.
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »
Tim Weiman

Ben Cowan-Dewar

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Re: A Coup for Nicklaus -- Ocean Hammock
« Reply #5 on: April 07, 2002, 04:37:00 PM »
Matt,
Your feelings seem to echo my thoughts on Mayacama.  I will have to make sure I get down there.

Ben
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »

John_Conley

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Re: A Coup for Nicklaus -- Ocean Hammock
« Reply #6 on: April 07, 2002, 07:55:42 PM »
Matt:

Glad you liked it.  I've tried to be pretty vocal, but when I posted about this in the past no one paid much attention.  Probably because it was so new and people wondered whether a Nicklaus design could really be that good.

I don't think you can say enough about the inland holes.  The six that play along the ocean are obviously dramatic, but the inland dozen are pretty good, fair, and offer nice variety and balance.

I've suggested everyone try to see it before they finish the development on the front.
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »

John_Conley

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Re: A Coup for Nicklaus -- Ocean Hammock
« Reply #7 on: April 07, 2002, 07:56:45 PM »
I just remembered my thoughts about the Golf Digest best new listing.  I'd like to see the other nine.
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »

Scott_Burroughs

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Re: A Coup for Nicklaus -- Ocean Hammock
« Reply #8 on: April 08, 2002, 07:51:10 AM »
Hmmm... yet another course calling themselves the Pebble Beach of the East, right on their web site here:

http://www.oceanhammock.com/golf.htm

The tour of the course doesn't work.

Here's the layout:



Has one thing in common like a typical Florida course, having water on just about every hole.  
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »

Matt_Ward

Re: A Coup for Nicklaus -- Ocean Hammock
« Reply #9 on: April 08, 2002, 08:19:59 AM »
John:

When rating for GD last year I did not have the opportunity to play Ocean Hammock but after having done so I can't see how the course could have finished lower than the top four. I played 7 of the ones listed ahead of it and Ocean Hammock is clearly a serious contender even among the top three -- Pacific Dunes, Arcadia Bluffs and Wolf Creek at Paradise Canyon. And, for anyone who knows me, I have nothing but the highest of respect for each of them.

Sometimes I think a state's reputation may sway some people. What I mean is that Florida is looked upon by a good number of people as the king of mediocre design. Yes, it has the most golf courses in the nation, however, few are really in the elite level. Ocean Hammock is a MUST play course.

When I look back last year and see the new courses that opened I really believe the four I just mentioned (Pac Dunes, Arcadia Bluffs, Wolf Creek and Ocean Hammock) are among the strongest quartet of new upscale courses to come along in quite some time -- narrowly besting the year when Bandon Dunes, Whistling Straits, Bay Harbor and The Trophy Club came forward a few years ago.

I agree with you completely John it would be wise for golfers to see Ocean Hammock before all the building is completed. Given the tough economic times we are experiencing I am amazed at just how much activity is taking place. For them to have a 12 story hotel center in Flagler County is like having the Empire State Building there. I don't know how much of an effect all of this building will have on the area but the Nicklaus design is clearly the centerpiece.

Scott:

Yes, Ocean Hammock has plenty of water but there are ways for just about any type level of player to use common sense in keeping your ball dry. This also assumes the player is teeing off from the appropriate tee. Play from the wrong tees and you will be making an ample contribution to their golf ball supplies. ;D

I played the tips and unless you hit the ball a decent ways with the driver it's literally p*ssing in the ocean for most players. They don't assign a 77.0 rating from the tips for nothing. In fact, I can't think of a course in the Sunshine State with a higher CR from the extreme backs. Maybe John or someone else can throw a name forward if he knows.

As far as the claim "Pebble Beach of the East" I think it is the brainchild of some overzealous mtkg person. Ocean Hammock doesn't have to rely upon hyped up promotions to sell what the golf course provides. What they should be doing is selling the quality of the course they have.

Arguably, the last four are among the best closing stretch of holes I've seen in quite some time and in my opinion top the closing series of four holes you find at Pac Dunes, Wolf Creek and Arcadia Bluffs.

I'll say this again how the course doesn't rate right at the top of Florida public golf (minus the TPC / Sawgrass) is beyond me. Ocean Hammock is clearly beyond World Woods (both courses) and Southern Dunes the other courses listed ahead of it by GolfWeek and I do respect all of them, however, Ocean Hammock offers more bite and more sensation than the others.  ;)
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »

John_Conley

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Re: A Coup for Nicklaus -- Ocean Hammock
« Reply #10 on: April 08, 2002, 11:18:44 AM »
Matt:

I thought for sure that Old Memorial would have a higher rating, but it only came in at 75.3.  I was perplexed by the high rating and high slope on a course with such wide corridors, but the staff told me that it was windy when the rating crew came out.  I know wind isn't supposed to be a big factor, but maybe it just looked impossible to the people with their wheel.

I disagree with the notion that Ocean Hammock is superior to Pine Barrens, but agree with everything else you say about its stature in my state.  A pretty good course, but I've been reluctant to get too gushy about it since others (most notably the "Best New" rankings we are discussing) don't seem to rave about it.  Hyperbole affects just about every new course, setting people up for disappointment; somehow Ocean Hammock escapes this.

Scott:

It is pretty obvious you haven't played Ocean Hammock.  The interior ponds were dug out to get fill to build up the rest of the area.  "Has one thing in common like a typical Florida course, having water on just about every hole"??  I assume you are describing "a typical Florida course" that was built on a questionable site to begin with.

The water in the rendering isn't really as ubiquitous as it appears.  For example, I don't even remember seeing it on #7 - although I'm sure someone will say they hit it in there as soon as I said that.  Ditto #13 and 15.

GOLF Magazine wrote about the strength of the interior holes.  My favorites are #5, 6, 11, and 14.

"Pebble Beach of the East"?  I don't know about that, but there is so little oceanfront golf that I don't find that message too offensive.  Holes like #8, 9, 17, & 18 play NEAR the ocean like #9, 10, and 17 at Pebble.  They don't have anything that plays ACROSS the ocean like #8 and #18 at Pebble.

(Matt, whenever I mention that I've played here someone says "I've played Hammock Dunes," as though they are the same thing.  I haven't seen HD, but I'm told it requires standing atop your golf car to see the ocean.)
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »

Scott_Burroughs

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Re: A Coup for Nicklaus -- Ocean Hammock
« Reply #11 on: April 08, 2002, 11:42:34 AM »
The rendering certainly makes it look like almost every hole is a water hole, very Florida-like (and Myrtle Beach and Ocean City, etc.).  That's all I meant (and said).  If the water is not that prominent (it's not affected by the tides are they?), then they're trying to make it look that way.  Does advertising tons of water holes attract more membership?  I would think not losing so many balls and scoring better would attract members, but that's just me.

Hammock Dunes (Fazio) has been heavily advertised in golf magazines for years.  The shot of the green by the ocean is all that is ever shown.  I can see how there might be confusion now, since OH's address is 200 Hammock Dunes Parkway!  Are they neighbors?
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:04 PM by -1 »

John_Conley

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Re: A Coup for Nicklaus -- Ocean Hammock
« Reply #12 on: April 08, 2002, 11:50:22 AM »

Quote
The rendering certainly makes it look like almost every hole is a water hole, very Florida-like (and Myrtle Beach and Ocean City, etc.).  That's all I meant (and said).  If the water is not that prominent (it's not affected by the tides are they?), then they're trying to make it look that way.  Does advertising tons of water holes attract more membership?  I would think not losing so many balls and scoring better would attract members, but that's just me.

Hammock Dunes (Fazio) has been heavily advertised in golf magazines for years.  The shot of the green by the ocean is all that is ever shown.  I can see how there might be confusion now, since OH's address is 200 Hammock Dunes Parkway!  Are they neighbors?

Not flat.  Acutally has a good bit of relief.  Man-made I'm sure, but the 15th green is elevated a good bit, as is the 10th tee.

Members?  Not here.  Daily-fee, although I don't know what the future plans are.

The water may be there, but you can't get a feel for how wide the playing corridors are from that picture.  They are W I D E.

Ocean Hammock is 3 miles past Hammock Dunes.  While in the area, I can strongly recommend Grand Haven - a Nicklaus design without the ocean.  A very good course as well.

I don't think of this as a swampy course like so many in Brevard County and around Orlando.  As mentioned, some interior ponds were dug out to get fill for the development going on around the front nine.  I think they have good man-made water holes.

I have yet to hear anything less than glowing from people that have played Ocean Hammock and will continue to recommend it.  It is as wonderful as the Slammer & Squire isn't.

« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »

Scott_Burroughs

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Re: A Coup for Nicklaus -- Ocean Hammock
« Reply #13 on: April 08, 2002, 12:13:19 PM »
Ocean Hammock's golf link of their web site had a link for "Members" that was password-protected.

Also, I trust the people here who have given the course praise.  This site is much better for finding good courses than any national or regional mag will do, and that's how I USED to find them out.  I don't think I've seen any mention of Rustic Canyon anywhere else besides here.  I'd barely heard of Ocean Hammock, now I know it's something to go out of my way to see if I'm in the area.
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:04 PM by -1 »

jim_lewis

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Re: A Coup for Nicklaus -- Ocean Hammock
« Reply #14 on: April 08, 2002, 01:12:29 PM »
Matt:

I played Ocean Dunes about two months ago, and I agree with your assessment. I may be slightly less enthusiastic, but It is probably the best ocean front course I have played between Kiawah and Seminole. I too was suprised that it was not ranked higher among GD's Best New Upscale. Those (like Ran) who have a special affection for wind will love this course.

I especially liked the way Nicklaus built up several skyline greens (and a few tees) to the top of the ocean-front dune to increase the view and the impact of the ocean.  The only negative I noticed was that in order to get material to build those greens and tees, he had to dig a lot of ponds resulting a too many tee shots over diagonal water (cape-like).

Certainly one of Nicklaus's better efforts.  At least they had the good sense not to build that huge high-rise condo building between the course and the ocean.

« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »
"Crusty"  Jim
Freelance Curmudgeon

A_Clay_Man

Re: A Coup for Nicklaus -- Ocean Hammock
« Reply #15 on: April 08, 2002, 01:22:06 PM »
I wonder if they have permission to use the words Pebble beach?

Even though there is a Pebble beach Wyoming or someother such places. The company (or at least some lawyers) have/has a pension for protecting it's name.  :o
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »

Richard_Goodale

Re: A Coup for Nicklaus -- Ocean Hammock
« Reply #16 on: April 08, 2002, 01:36:15 PM »
I walked that property in the early-mid 70'swhen it was hardly more than a gleam in Harold Geneen's eye.  It was soooo remote from civilisation I couldn't see any potential for it then, and told ITT so.  Glad to see I was wrong!
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »

John_Conley

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Re: A Coup for Nicklaus -- Ocean Hammock
« Reply #17 on: April 08, 2002, 02:12:45 PM »

Quote
Ocean Hammock's golf link of their web site had a link for "Members" that was password-protected.


Scott:

I've visited the site quite a few times over the past year and a half and often show people the aerial you retrieved.  It captures the course's proximity to the ocean very well.

Regarding members, I reckon they have something going.  But don't confuse Ocean Hammock (btw, Crusty... did you play the right course??  ;) ) with the ultra-private Hammock Dunes next door.

The market for Ocean Hammock has been upscale daily-fee.  $175ish.  I'm amazed at how many Floridians say that is too much when they will freely pay that to pay Pebble Beach or something similar.  The response I hear is that, "Well, that's for Pebble Beach!"  Like this course ISN'T special?  (For all the coastline in Florida, almost none is used for golf!  I was stunned when I moved here 9 years ago and learned that.)

I think people are so tired of playing courses down here that are pricey like Champions Gate or World Golf Village and just assume O.H. will be more of the same.

Suffice to say, the work by Nicklaus's group is worthy of the site.
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »

Matt_Ward

Re: A Coup for Nicklaus -- Ocean Hammock
« Reply #18 on: April 08, 2002, 02:42:21 PM »
John: Excellent point about price points and quality courses. You are dead on target about the lack of courses near the shoreline. Why must so many Sunshine State courses be buried in the swamps and muck?

John, you are so right about how many Florida courses are just a big yawn (particularly the private push in the Naples area and the "resortish" southeast Florida courses that simply capitalize on Yankees invading for the winter season? Many of these courses are non-descript and simpy woeful in terms of their design.

Is Ocean Hammock pricey? No doubt -- but you get superior results. The people who run the facility don't need to jump on the "Pebble Beach" bandwagon. They just need to highlight their own name and go from there. How various magazines have left Ocean Hammock off their radr screens just makes me wonder what do people want in a golf course that Ocean Hammock does not have ???

Anyone who loves to battle the elements will relish Ocean Hammock -- the wind always makes you improvise on a wide range of shots. And, if you think you have game just try the tips because you will be in for a big time tussle.

The Nicklaus group did a superb job in crafting a wide variety of holes and although I do agree with Jim Lewis on the possible overuse of Cape holes I believe each of them does make you decide on just how bold / conservative you truly want to be.

Every hole is not an all-star completely detached from the flow of the land (i.e. Castle Pines), and there is an ebb and flow whereby the golfer must adjust to the rollar coaster ride you get for the duration of the round. The closing stretch of holes is also sensational as you must string together solid shots and clear placement. The Nicklaus gang has been criticized in the past but let the record reflect that Ocean Hammock is a testament to understanding how to evolve in the field of design.

Like I said before last year was a vintage one for new upscale public courses and Ocean Hammock makes a vintage foursome with the other leaders in Pac Dunes, Arcadia Bluffs and Wolf Creek at Paradise Canyon. You could have a really exciting 19th hole discussion on the merits of each of them. ;)
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »

George Pazin

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Re: A Coup for Nicklaus -- Ocean Hammock
« Reply #19 on: April 08, 2002, 03:12:54 PM »
At the risk of being labelled a cynic (I'm really a skeptic, not a cynic!), couldn't the "evolving style" of many big name architects simply be different design associates? Maybe some more promising & effective than others?
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »
Big drivers and hot balls are the product of golf course design that rewards the hit one far then hit one high strategy.  Shinny showed everyone how to take care of this whole technology dilemma. - Pat Brockwell, 6/24/04

jim_lewis

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Re: A Coup for Nicklaus -- Ocean Hammock
« Reply #20 on: April 08, 2002, 03:27:13 PM »
John:

Yes, I played Ocean Hammock, not Hammock Dunes.
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »
"Crusty"  Jim
Freelance Curmudgeon

JP Morgan

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Re: A Coup for Nicklaus -- Ocean Hammock
« Reply #21 on: April 08, 2002, 10:51:17 PM »
I appreciate Matt Ward's comments on Ocean Hammock.  I think he has several good comments overall and in detail.  My recollection albeit as well not quite so enthusiastic but yet favorable.  I played the course shortly after it opened. I made a post at that time but am unable to retrieve it since the GCA software has changed. I remember the private community toll bridge you had to cross and then what looked like a multi-million dollar investment community that obviously had a long way to go in regards to development.  Lot sale signs were everywhere.  My first inclination was that this would NOT be a setting favorable to the usual crowd on GCA.  We were treated quite kindly by the trailer crew (the original clubhouse) and got in for the bargain of $ 125.  Apparently we just missed Mr. Nicklaus who was there for the grand opening.  We were escorted across a cart bridge to the expansive range and told to take all the time we wanted as we were one of only two groups present that afternoon.

Overall I would say I definitely enjoyed the course.  It was certainly in excellent shape for as new as it was and it played typical of a more groomed and  mature Florida course.  The course was fair, provided satisfactory shot value and had several nice features which improved as one finished the "Bear Claw -- holes 15-18".  I did not feel it was overly difficult and actually thought the course ratings were a bit generous.  

The more stategic holes included the par 4 5th, mainly from the tee to carry a portion of the left side water, the par 5th 6th, hittable in two but requiring a precision shot onto a peninsula green, the par 4 11th with a large bunker bisecting the fairway with reward left, but danger, and the final 4 holes, which I felt were the best on the course.

Greens averaged about 31 yards in depth, slightly less in width.  I don't recall anything extravagant in regards to the green complexes, but they had decent overall contour.  I recall a few standing out as quite troublesome required strategic approach, but my recollection is certainly not as fresh as Matt's.   Bunkering on 10, 12, and 17 greenside was nice.   Nothing else stands out as I recall except one unusual pot bunker on 15 fairway right, and of course the long fairway bunker on 11.  

The two things I personally did not care for were what I felt were expansive and generously wide fairways throughout and the fact that it was apparent to me that at some point in the future, the course would be innundated with housing.  These two points made me believe this was more akin to a  resort course.  Water came into play at least to some degree on perhaps 10 or so holes, and about 4 or 5 greens were oceanside.  The elements were in play on the finishing holes of both nines.

Having left Ocean Hammock I had a nice recollection of the experience but felt there might be criticism from the group.  The previous comments are positive, yet I am uncertain how the consensus will view the overall course.  I myself am happy that most of those who have actually played the course enjoyed it and I for one would certainly like to make a return visit.  I feel $175 is perhaps a bit pricey, but certainly worthy of a visit and I think a very enjoyable time will be had.  It is certainly one of the better Florida courses and is in an area ripe for expansion.  

If you do make a visit, I would recommend after your round that you make the short trek south to Beverly Beach and visit the Shark House.  After a bit of nostalgia inside, sit upstairs on the outside deck with your favorite beverage, peering into the great Atlantic no more than 50 feet or so away, and recant your experience at Ocean Hammock.  You are certain to come away with a positive experience.

« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »

Matt_Ward

Re: A Coup for Nicklaus -- Ocean Hammock
« Reply #22 on: April 09, 2002, 10:09:45 AM »
I see Ocean Hammock as the 2nd best public in the Sunshine State -- right behind TPC / Sawgrass.

JP Morgan:

Appreciate your take on the course and I did have the opportunity to sample The Shark House ... also mention King's just down the street in Flagler Beach. Good food and wonderful view of the Atlantic.

However, a few comments need mentioning. I think you must have played the course when the wind was a bit mild. Try playing the layout when you're getting a 15-20 mph blowing through -- it just makes the shotmaking requirements more intense. Also, all of the par-3's are first rate -- you don't get near the pin on any without a superb approach.

I have to ask what tee boxes you played -- and when you say the course ratings were a bit generous I have to ask how much so?

You have at Ocean Hammock a variety in terms of how the greens were designed and shaped. If you don't have solid approaches that gauge distance and proper depth you will face countless recoveries that demand a Mickelson touch in certain spots. Did you forget the swales on a number of holes that simply funnel your ball further away if you should miss?

Ocean Hammock is not a crescendo in difficulty -- the usual lament on Nicklaus courses from his early days. The course has a wonderful ebb and flow to it. You must constantly think on all of your shots and Nicklaus did provide a wide variety of hole lengths and directions to bring into play whatever wind is blowing that day.

Although I generally take a pass on many Florida golf layouts (so much is lacking any real quality) I recommend the course as a refreshing change and one that any serious golfer should keep on their radar screen. A first rate effort by the Nicklaus design and to answer George Pazin I credit Nicklaus himself with being able to incorporate other design associates and their opinions for what took place at Ocean Hammock and a number of his more recent designs -- although, personally, I still like plenty of Jack's initial works although many people view them as being overly difficult and too one dimensional in their style.

One last question JP -- how do you rate Florida public golf? Be most interested in seeing your top ten. Thanks.
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »

JP Morgan

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Re: A Coup for Nicklaus -- Ocean Hammock
« Reply #23 on: April 10, 2002, 12:35:36 AM »
Matt,
    
The wind WAS indeed mild the day I played, although it kicked up a bit on the finishing holes along the ocean.  No question conditions would dictate a more difficult situation.  I played the Gold boxes.  I had to recheck the yardage guide I brought back.  6723 yards.  Course rating 74.8/142.  I'll admit I had a fine day on the scorecard and probably did not appreciate the swales as much as I should have.  You are correct, there were certainly some areas to avoid.  I agree on the 3's.  My comments still stand regarding the abundant generosity of the fairways.  I personally did not experience much trouble and therefore thought the ratings to be inflated, but of course, my most recent comparison was Victoria National, whose course ratings/slope were less than that of Ocean Hammock.  Playing that course on a frequent basis does skew one's opinions of course difficulty.

Concerning Florida golf, I will preface by saying I live in Indiana and any chance I get to visit the Sunshine State generally involves having a good time and usually golf.  What's strikes me most of the Florida courses is generally the elements more so than the design.  Wind, water, scorching sunshine, frequent sunburn, sand, insects and unusual reptilian creatures, and Bermuda greens.  I generally have trouble adjusting to Florida courses.   Nevertheless, I enjoy them.  Rating Florida golf??  In general I don't think the usual "good" Florida course rates with the usual "good" course in the Heartland (Ohio, Indiana), nor the East coast, upper Midwest or points inbetween.  Perhaps that is simply my preference for terrain, different grasses, and a cooler temperature.  Nevertheless if given the chance, send me to FLA to tee it up anytime.

Although several of the courses I have played in Florida took place years ago, I do have a fairly good Florida experience.  I have played multiple times in Orlando (all the Disney courses, Falcon's Fire, Grand Cypress, a couple of small country clubs and more rural courses) and Pensacola (Tiger Point, Pensacola CC, Perdido Bay, The Moors).  Also have visited West Palm(multiple tracks but 15 years ago), Stuart (Reserve), Sandestin (resort), Miami (Doral courses), Ponte Verde (Sawgrass, Queens Harbor), and Amelia (Oak Marsh, Ocean Links, Long Point).  I may be missing a few more stops.  I have not played Seminole, World Woods, or Black Diamond but would like to.

From my personal experience, TPC Sawgrass was my favorite.  I won't be held accountable for my real top ten list, but will say I prefer the Northern and Panhandle courses over the South and Central courses (that I have played).  Your queries have made me think about where Ocean Hammock fits in.  I might concur with you that it is around #3 on the list of the several I have played.  Congratulations.  That either speaks more highly of the course, or says I'm not overly impressed with the Florida courses.  (I'd say it's somewhere inbetween.)

Speaking of Ocean Hammock, there was an interesting writeup in Links magazine in March (last year I believe).  It was a nice pictorial under their Modern Classic section.  It was written by "Brad King".  Some of the quotes: "... a perfect resort layout: dramatic, yet player-friendly; visually explicit, yet posessing plenty of options for low-handicappers....Golfers can spray their tee shots a bit, but there is a clearly defined, optimal spot from which to approach each green complex...the greens at Ocean Hammock are far more soothing and playable than the notoriously difficult putting surfaces drawn by Nicklaus in the mid-80's...The Nicklaus team moved more than a million yards of dirt...a third in shaping, the rest in raising the course...and it's the jacking up the course that allows such dramatic views of the ocean...aestheticaly pleasing, yet ...there appears nothing forced or contrived....the interior holes are where you make good, sound, strategic golf holes, then the ocean holes are all raised with a lower fairway playing into a higher green site, which is characteristic of older-style golf courses....Nicklaus insisted on small changes meant to ease the burden for the resort golfer: site lines on water hazards were improved, green contours were softened, tree and shrub vegetation was thinned, and bunkers were made easier to escape...It goes on to describe the majority of the holes.  I think a decent writeup overall....

Glad you got a chance to visit the Shark House.  I'll have to try the other spots, as I would anticipate a future visit.

« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »

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