Discussing the 3rd green site at Royal Melbourne

[Ian Andrew]

Thanks for the photos – I’ll to try turning this into a thread….

The 3rd green site at Royal Melbourne West is one of the most compelling I’ve seen.

The combination of the diagonal swale, the undulations on the top of the roll before the green, and the fact that the green falls away from play. I love how something so simple, and with so many options is so difficult to play. One of my playing partners, who had played the hole for decades said, "I still don’t have a clue what to hit from the tee or what to play as an approach shot. What works one day is cast away by the hole the next."

I tried to run a ball through the swale the first time and tried laying back and a pitch in the next. Despite two good tee shots, I had nothing to show after either approach.

In my mind, this may be the best hole that gets the least amount of discussion on the site.

For those who have played there, how do you play the hole, and how often does it lead to success? Where do you get into the most trouble?

Why is this concept not duplicated more?

[Mark_F]

Ian,

I've sent you one.  Hopefully it does the job.  The file size is a little larger than what you mentioned, so hopefully it doesn't clag up your email too long...

[Ian Andrew]

The hole - from the approach...



A different angle...

[Shane Gurnett]

For those who have played there, how do you play the hole, and how often does it lead to success? Where do you get into the most trouble?

Ian,

This is one hole where it is crucial to know where the pin is before the tee shot - you get a peek at the green whilst playing the 2nd so there is no excuse. Unless the pin is cut on the rhs, the line of the tee shot should always be down the right to allow a pitch down the length of the green. If the pin is on the right, then the tee shot needs to be on the left of the fairway. The trick with the approach shot, whether it be a pitch or a low runner is to be just past the flag to allow an uphill putt. I know that sounds easy, but in practice it is anything but! The green seems to produce more missed short putts than most others at RM. A gem of a hole. The most trouble is usually encountered with a drive that is too far left, regardless of the pin position.

[Mike_Clayton]

It is always difficult to get the ball close here especially in a tournament when the greens are hard.
When the pin is in the front right the best place to come in from is the 2nd fairway - no one does that although I tried it in practice rounds and it is a much easier pitch.
I remember playing it one day with a really strong wind behind.Bob Charles,John Lister and I all drove it into the hollow in front and we all putted clean through the other end of the green. Now for Lister and I that is understandable - but when Bob Charles does it you know its fast and tricky.

[Dick Kirkpatrick]

Good picture on their web site:

http://www.royalmelbourne.com.au/guests/course/hole3W.mhtml

[Ian Andrew]

Mike,

Thanks

I never would have thought about the 2nd fairway and the Bob Charles story was awesome.


Dick,

That is David Scaletti's photo and it does do a wonderful job of showing off the swale.

[Chris Kane]

When the pin is in the front right the best place to come in from is the 2nd fairway - no one does that although I tried it in practice rounds and it is a much easier pitch.

Why didn't you do it in a tournament round?

[Neil_Crafter]

1. he might have killed a fellow competitor
2. he didn't want people thinking he hit a rank duck-hook

This is one of the best and most difficult greens in all of Australia. Gives a fairly innocuous hole from the tee real teeth.

[Mike_Clayton]

Chris,

Good question - and I may have once. I know I tried it in a practice round and I think the line was opened up when they removed a clump of tea-tree by the left bunker at the 2nd green.
Probably I did not try it because, whilst it may have been the best shot, it was one you would look a fool if you screwed it up.
And it was only any use if the pin was in the front right corner - and it rarely was/is.

[Brian Phillips]

I had two birdies the WHOLE week in Australia and one was here and the other on MacKenzie's only golf hole in Australia on the same course.

The 3rd is a wonderful hole, we stood for ages on the tee wondering what club to hit off the tee.  I think I opted for a rescue club. I set up for a draw but of course with the way I was hitting the ball I hit a push out to the rough (what there is of it) on the right hand side.  For the I knew because of the swale and that the pin was at the front that I had to either land it short of the swale or in the swale and hope not to hit the upslope and die in the swale or catch the down slope entering the swale and bound on through the green.

I was lucky and I landed just in the bottom of the swale and rolled up to about 6 feet.

The beauty of the hole is the swale in front, the front to back fall away green and of course the maintenance of the hole.  Nothing of the hole would work if the irrigation was on and the whole area in front was soft and could check a ball hit hard into the upslope of the green.

The other thing that struck me after we finished playing the hole was the width of the fairway even though it is a short Par 4.  The width was still there which helped mess with everyone's minds on the tee.  If the width had been reduced then everyone might have just pulled irons out of their bags instead of all us using different clubs.  You know when you are on a wonderful short Par 4 if there is discussion on the tee on what is the correct club to use off the tee and then this continues all the way until the ball is in the hole.

[Brian Walshe]

I spent about 45 mins one evening a few years ago mucking around hitting approaches from different angles on 3.  No one was around and it was an education to see how well a hole can be constructed from what is just a relatively ordinary piece of land.  3 plays with a golfer's mind.  Almost all of us are conditioned to play short of a pin and let the ball release, something aided by the fact most greens tend to slope from back to front.  On 3 you can get tempted into trying to land the ball before the pin and end up in the swale.  Most times the best play is to fly it to the flag, and take the uphill putt when it releases past.  It also of a length where downwind you are tempted to go further left than is wise.

[Tom_Doak]

  ... Almost all of us are conditioned to play short of a pin and let the ball release, something aided by the fact most greens tend to slope from back to front.  On 3 you can get tempted into trying to land the ball before the pin and end up in the swale.  Most times the best play is to fly it to the flag, and take the uphill putt when it releases past.  It also of a length where downwind you are tempted to go further left than is wise.

Brian:

Exactly right, and this is true for nearly all fallaway greens.  The point is that you want to be putting back up the hill to the hole, so to me, the play is as far down the right of the fairway as you can hit it, then pitching straight across the swale and keeping just right of the hole so you'll be putting uphill.  The only problem with that is if you get the wrong distance on your pitch, it leaves you a hell of a big break on your putt.

[Alex Miller]

I too have always found shots which negotiate swales or humps laterally as opposed to diagonally or otherwise is the easier play. It's much easier to plan for how the ball will react because only distance needs to be perfect, not necessarily the line.

It's like a severely breaking putt, those require speed and line. I'll take the downhill straight one every time.

[Jason Topp]

It shows how much you can miss on one play of a course.  I pitched to the middle of the green.  It ran to the back edge.  Tap in par.  I don't think I noticed the swale.

[RJ_Daley]

Does the GCA.com article on RM give us an even better visual understanding of the greensite complex?

From the descriptions of the 3rd RM, and the photos of the diagonal approach to a green that falls away with the approach higher on the left open side, and bunkers left and right, I get the sense this hole approach plays similar to MacKenzies 13th at Crystal Downs.  While the right front swale is not the same because CD has no swale, it does have a right side gathering down into a bunker.  Is that fair to say, TD?

So, what I take away from this is that while this hole is a symphony of varied features (high left approach, low swale onto a nose in front right, bunkers left and right of a fall-away green), it seems to me the hole is most influenced by the foregreen combination of high leftside open approach to the diagonal set green counterbalanced by low right side swale also on diagonal to false front green nose.  It seems like one of those holes you could play forever and not get bored, ever.

[Brian Phillips]

RJ,

Come up for air, man!  That last paragraph nearly killed me....

[Andrew Bertram]

The David Scaletti photo on the RM website is outstanding

I used to spend many day light savings evenings in the mid 90's around many of the greens trying to fins the most appropriate shots under different conditions. The assistant pros used to spend time with Bruce Green learning from the master of RM how to play all sorts of shots to get it close. Members did not play t all on weeknight evenings during day light savings and we would lock up at 6pm and hit the course until dark 3 hours later and we try every shot you could imagine on holes all over the course trying to make differnt things work.

There were two prevailing winds,
northerly that played into the player left to right
and a south / westerly that assisted the player nearly behind maybe a little right to left

Front left pin just past the swale
southerly - the best results came from the bold shot of playing anything from 4 iron to 6 irons and playing a bump and run through the swale from about 100 yards out, risky but a lot of fun to pull off

northerly - hit it as high as you can and try and stop it sold 10 feet past the hole

Back left pin on a the shelf near the back left edge


This pin position was used regularly and after looking across from 2 we used to blow driver as far down the right side as possible
, you could then play staright towards the pin and allow for the breeze accordingly, i always found this the most accessible pin on the green as you could spin it against the small slope in front of this hollow


The middle pin spot allowed you to try and land it on the front edge and run it down or fly it in there to the flag.

Bruce also tought us to play 5 west into the wind by playing a bump and run 2 irons to the bottom of the hill with a bit of draw to allow it to run up onto the green rather than playing the ball p into the breeze.



















 

[JESII]

Looks a great hole...is it reasonable to think the architect could see the final result once he saw the swale? It seems like the great holes have one feature that stands out and the rest of the hole falls into place around it. On this one, 325 meters seems like the perfect distance to use a feature such as the swale at the front edge of the green...mush shorter and you really dictate the play from the tee, and any longer and the approach shot might have no chance of stopping short of the back edge...

[Warwick Loton]

Good luck trying to bump and run it over the swale from out right... and good luck trying to fly it in & stay on the surface when the green's hard and fast...

The left hand side of the green holds the ball more than the centre or right. Also, along the front half of the left hand side of the green, the surface slopes down from the bunker edge toward the centre of the green. I've had some success flying approach shots to the front left of the green, playing in from anywhere left of the centre of the fairway. Not a big target, but if you go a bit further left than you intend (without landing in the sand) the ball can kick a little and finish up close to a central flag position. That said, if you are going to miss and finish in a bunker, the one on the right tends to be a much, much nicer spot than those on the left.

I've seen a couple of highly skilled players successfully bump and run little approach shot from the left hand rough, but trying to do this gives you a very narrow target (a flat but thin neck leading into the green).

Three significant things have changed on this hole:
- In the sixties the swale was reshaped: in order to make mowing easier, the ridge atop the swale was lowered.
- Over the decades the rough on the rhs of the fairway has encroached further and further. Where now there is a pair of drive bunkers, originally there were four in a row forming a diagonal hazard. (Walk into the tea-tree beside the remaining bunkers and the remnants are obvious.) Further down the fairway, there used to be much more room to drive out to the right.
- The sand hazard at the back right of the green disappeared long ago.

Another historical aspect of the hole is that it is quite different to the hole designed during MacKenzie's visit. When additional land was subsequently purchased, allowing a second 18-hole course, this hole was shortened to make room for the fairway of what's now 17E. The redesign reduced the length of 3W by more than 60 yards and brought the green further west, repositioning it from a flattish spot to the current sloped one. This time-line raises the probability that Mackenzie's Australian partner, Alex Russell, was the primary designer of the aspects of this hole that make it great (including the green complex).

To me, the hole incorporates characteristics of Russell's design work on the East course. There he uses diagonal hazards (swales & bunkers); has a number of sublime little par-4s (most with very wide fairways, giving you lots of driving options); has a few greens that slope down from front to back; has a number of greens that require precision approach shots just to get your ball onto the green (whereas for most greens on the West its' easy to get your ball onto the green but hard to approach to the preferred positions on the greens)...
  

[Tim Liddy]

If my memory serves, this green was also the most severe on the golf course. Not only does it slope away from the golfer but it seemed to be at least 3% or more over the entire green.

[Warwick Loton]

If my memory serves, this green was also the most severe on the golf course. Not only does it slope away from the golfer but it seemed to be at least 3% or more over the entire green.

Tim,
It has a more severe slope away from you than any other green on either course, but there are a number of greens that slope in other directions at a much greater angle. As these others mostly slope down from back to front, you notice their slopes putting but not so much in your approach shot as at 3W.