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Melvyn Morrow

Re: What really makes a hole "penal"?
« Reply #25 on: March 02, 2010, 02:59:01 PM »

Mac

Not forgetting that penal also adds to the fun and excitement of taking the risk, of pushing ones skills to the limit. Fail and return to fight another day or in a few minutes depending upon the hazard, this is the where the designers with the help of Nature can produce magic.

Penal is the doorway to fulfilment on a golf course, but you have first to find the door then enter. Many modern courses have forsaken penal as dated and just unworkable, but that is down to the closed mind and let’s make it easy attitude of many of the modern golfers.

Why has cart balling in the mountains taken off, perhaps people must perceive a challenge, but its already there in golf, just needs to be set free. Problem too many pussycats on our courses, with very few Big Cats (can’t use Tiger not appropriate at the moment) these days.

Fulfilment comes form participation, so how is that possible if the challenges are rather watered down, aids available to get you around the course and also to do your thinking and measuring. Wow, how much of the game have some really lost over the last decade or two.     

Melvyn

Bob_Huntley

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: What really makes a hole "penal"?
« Reply #26 on: March 02, 2010, 03:06:21 PM »
Surely, penal for me is a piece of cake for Fortson.


Bob

Mac Plumart

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: What really makes a hole "penal"?
« Reply #27 on: March 02, 2010, 03:12:34 PM »
Melvyn...I agree and I think it sounds like you are talking in part of your post about the nice blend of strategic/penal.

LIke the Inverness #7 thread going on the site right now...strategic/penal.

You can play it far left off the tee and avoid that creek, but you are left with a LONG approach to an uphill green.  If you play this way, you took the safe strategy and are most likely playing for a miracle par or a bogey.

Or you can challenege that creek and be left with a straight in approach from a shorter position and looking for a birdie.  If you choose to play this way, the strategy you have choosen brings the penal nature of the creek into play and perhaps a double bogey.  BUT that is your choice.  Which is why I like the hole.

Good stuff.
Sportsman/Adventure loving golfer.

Richard Choi

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: What really makes a hole "penal"?
« Reply #28 on: March 02, 2010, 03:23:10 PM »
My definition:

Penal - the hole punishes you for making a mistake

Strategic/Heroic - the hole rewards you for making the correct shot

Kalen Braley

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: What really makes a hole "penal"?
« Reply #29 on: March 02, 2010, 03:33:36 PM »
My definition:

Penal - the hole punishes you for making a mistake

Strategic/Heroic - the hole rewards you for making the correct shot

Two ways to look at it Richard:

Or -

Penal - The hole rewards you for making the correct shot

Strategic/Heroic - the hole doesn't reward you for making the incorrect shot.

 ;)
« Last Edit: March 02, 2010, 03:36:38 PM by Kalen Braley »

Mark_Fine

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: What really makes a hole "penal"?
« Reply #30 on: March 02, 2010, 08:34:53 PM »
Scott,
This may have been covered by someone already, but penal is relative.  What is penal to you on a golf course might be non-existent to me.  Penal is often blurred with strategic, heroic and many other descriptions of design.
Mark

Dónal Ó Ceallaigh

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: What really makes a hole "penal"?
« Reply #31 on: March 03, 2010, 05:04:21 AM »
My idea of penal is where the punishment for a less than perfectly executed shot is excessive.  The hole itself may not be 100% penal, but it may have certains design features that are. Take for example a bunker located in a very deep hollow located to the side of or in front of a green. If the recovery shot from the hollow would be considered extremely difficult, then the placement of a bunker in this hollow is penal and excessive in my opinion. I believe you can have a penal element to a hole, even if you have options. I'm talking about the punishment fitting the crime.

I don't consider a long carry over water, rough or some other hazard as penal, as long as you have the option to take an alternative route. I don't view bunkers on either side of the fairway or green as penal, as long as you can avoid them. These type of holes are just tough in my opinion; nothing wrong with tough but fair holes.

Extremely narrow fairways bordered by rough is also penal in my book. I'm thinking of courses with US Open set-ups.

However, if it's a hole where the architect had no other option, but to go with a narrow fairway, I don't consider it penal in the strict sense of the word. One example is the short par 4 9th at Strabane (N Ireland). The river Mourne runs all the way up the left of the fairway and all down the right, a steep bank covered with long grass and bushes awaits the inaccurate drive. In this example, the architect had no option but to go with a narrow fairway.

Yes, I know, a lot of ifs and buts, but nothing is ever black and white.

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