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Rob Rigg

  • Total Karma: 0
Is this decade better for GCA than the last?
« on: December 29, 2009, 12:51:47 AM »
Jim started a great thread on the Top 10 Courses of this decade and some of the lads have added some more contenders to the list.

What would the Top 10 be for 1990 to 2000 and how do they compare?

I look at this decade as a real renaissance in GCA, founded on what was done in the 90s at Sand Hills and Bandon Dunes, but clearly taken to another level in terms of breadth and names involved (at least in the honorables . . . )

Am I right? How excited should we be? What are the chances that the next 10 years produce similar quality (maybe not quantity)? Old Macdonald is a great start for the next decade, what else is on the horizon?

The Top 10 for this Decade and Honorable Mentions

1. Pacific Dunes
2. Cape Kidnappers
3. Barnbougle Dunes
4. Ballyneal Golf and Hunt Club
5. Rock Creek Cattle Company
6. Friar's Head
7. Sebonack Golf Club
8. Bandon Trails
9. Chambers Bay Golf Club
10. Kingsley Club

Honorable Mention:
Arcadia Bluffs Golf Club, Boston Golf Club, Calusa Pines Golf Club, Colorado Golf Club, The Club at Black Rock, Dallas National, Kinloch Golf Club, Nanea Golf Club, Nine Bridges, Old Sandwich

Plus

Rustic Canyon, MPCC Shore, Castle Stuart, Wine Valley, Black Mesa, Red Ledges, etc.

Melvyn Morrow

Re: Is this decade better for GCA than the last?
« Reply #1 on: December 29, 2009, 09:22:58 AM »

Rob

I fear not. The last decade has much to be cheerful about, although it has also seen the relentless march of the cart, cart parks and tracks.

The increased numbers of non-walkers, many who think that this is the only way to play the game, has further diminished the game of golf.

The confusion is based upon the simple fact that many will not address their own values. There is no induction into golf, there is no course introduction, all there is, is the commercialism of the course, the need to make the financial investment pay as soon as possible, whatever the cost. Perhaps the fundamentals of golf are not as important as make a dollar.

I understand that money makes the world go round. Yet at what sacrifice, the cost of our own values, for our convenience (some may even go as far as say out totally laziness and selfishness), for the sake of an easy life with no real commitment because we have diminished them by our own lack of honouring the original values our forefathers set by their action in far more difficult times.

I cannot talk about other countries but here in the UK, we have been undermined, our institutions with our fundamental way of life are in total turmoil due to a simple belief in incorporating and agreeing the protection for Human Rights. The only ones who have these rights seem to be the criminals, the murders, the conmen, but never the victim or his or her family or loved ones. We have allowed an act initially based upon a sensible idea with no built-in safeguards to be distorted and used against the innocent who are now powerless due to the weak and greedy politicians both here and in Europe. 

As golfers, we know that if we take our eyes off the ball we are in trouble, yet is this not what we have done over the last few decades. Not all is bad, but when do we start waking up to the damage we are doing to our game, our courses and our own commitments to ourselves.

As I said, the last decade has much to be cheerful about, but let’s not be too complacent, lest we suddenly wake up some morning and find we have lost control with very little hope of any way back.

And yes some good courses have come onto the scene in last few years  - in the case of St Andrews I would, if I was forced to say, that six out of seven in not a bad number but out of that six, three shine IMHO.

Happy New Year

Melvyn


Joe Hancock

  • Total Karma: 6
Re: Is this decade better for GCA than the last?
« Reply #2 on: December 29, 2009, 09:25:01 AM »
Robb,

I wonder if we should be looking at the question with the business component in mind. In other words, even though some great courses were built in the last decade, how many of them will be around in another decade? We've seen some of this already.....Tom Doak has had some really good golf design go to the wayside, unfortunately.

So, even though some great design and build work was done, is there enough interest from the golfing world to finance these endeavors, or will golf course design follow the money in the next decade, or will the arts and crafts renaissance continue?

Maybe in the interest of keeping this upbeat, we should leave out the business component....... :)

Joe

" What the hell is the point of architecture and excellence in design if a "clever" set up trumps it all?" Peter Pallotta, June 21, 2016

"People aren't picking a side of the fairway off a tee because of a randomly internally contoured green ."  jeffwarne, February 24, 2017

Ian Andrew

Re: Is this decade better for GCA than the last?
« Reply #3 on: December 29, 2009, 09:41:58 AM »
Here's a quick 10 courses from the 1990's:

Sand Hills
Kingsbarns
Ocean Course Kiawah
Bandon Dunes
Whistling Straights
The European Club
Cabo Del Sol Ocean
Shadow Creek
Kapalua Plantation Course
Pete Dye Golf Club


Adam Clayman

  • Total Karma: 0
Re: Is this decade better for GCA than the last?
« Reply #4 on: December 29, 2009, 09:59:19 AM »
Quality over quantity in the oughts.

But then, I probably have not seen as much as Melvyn.
"It's unbelievable how much you don't know about the game you've been playing your whole life." - Mickey Mantle

Scott Warren

  • Total Karma: 0
Re: Is this decade better for GCA than the last?
« Reply #5 on: December 29, 2009, 10:08:03 AM »
I cannot talk about other countries but here in the UK, we have been undermined, our institutions with our fundamental way of life are in total turmoil due to a simple belief in incorporating and agreeing the protection for Human Rights. The only ones who have these rights seem to be the criminals, the murders, the conmen, but never the victim or his or her family or loved ones. We have allowed an act initially based upon a sensible idea with no built-in safeguards to be distorted and used against the innocent who are now powerless due to the weak and greedy politicians both here and in Europe. 

I've just read that passage eight times and I'm at a loss to work out how it pertains to golf course architecture.

Also, you say cart golfing is taking over in the UK.

How many golf courses have opened in the UK in the past 10 years? And of them, how many are predominantly "cart" courses?

Mac Plumart

  • Total Karma: 0
Re: Is this decade better for GCA than the last?
« Reply #6 on: December 29, 2009, 10:39:27 AM »
Scott...

I take Melvyn's comments to say something to the effect that the last decade+ of golf course architecture has pulled the game farther from its roots.  Which he thinks is bad...and getting worse...as is the question posed in the thread.

Perhaps at this point I am putting words in his mouth, but courses that are unwalkable are not traditional golf courses in his mind and, therefore, they are bad...given his preference to the walking game.

I would point out a few bright spots (I am unsure if they are this decade or last) that should appeal to Melvyn...

Chambers Bay,
Ballyneal,
Rob Rigg's website,
Old MacDonald (and the entire Bandon Dunes complex),
Kiawah Ocean is walking only before noon,
Askernish,
Whistling Straits,
Geoff Shackelford's cause...

I could go on...but hope is not lost...and maybe with the collapse of the home building boom golf courses can go back to the original roots Melvyn embrace and I am learning about.

Just a thought. :)
Sportsman/Adventure loving golfer.

Jim Colton

Re: Is this decade better for GCA than the last?
« Reply #7 on: December 29, 2009, 10:42:41 AM »
According to Golf Magazine Top 100 World

Sand Hills
Whistling Straits
The Ocean Course
Bandon Dunes
Kingsbarns
Loch Lomand
The European Club
Cabo Del Sol

In US Top 100 but not world: Shadow Creek, World Woods Pine Barrens, Trump International, Pete Dye Golf Club, Ocean Forest, Double Eagle

From the unofficial GCA Top 100
Sand Hills   9.62
Kiawah Island (Ocean Course)   8.00
Bandon Dunes   7.71
Kingsbarns   7.67
Whistling Straits (Straits)   7.62
Pete Dye Golf Club   7.55
Cabo del Sol (Ocean)   7.52
Kapalua (Plantation)   7.41
Wild Horse Golf Club   7.40
Shadow Creek   7.26

Wolf Run   7.15
World Woods (Pine Barrens)   7.00
Victoria   6.94
Loch Lomand   6.77
European Club   6.53
Double Eagle   6.44
Ocean Forest   6.25

Melvyn Morrow

Re: Is this decade better for GCA than the last?
« Reply #8 on: December 29, 2009, 10:45:22 AM »
Scott

With all due respect but it has all to do with losing control something our Governing Bodies have done long ago (if they ever really had control). The Labour Government believing they were in total control have unleashed untold harm on these islands, yet we now see clearly they were never in control but jumping from on poor decision to another, does that not echo the R&A performance except they never got round to deciding anything.

As for my comments about carts, when I started golf in the late 1950’s carts did not exist here, nor their cart tracks, yet today many of our courses have been scarred by these bloody paths. For what, the sake of some bloody lazy people who seem to care naught for the game of golf, their health, just their own comfort.

May I ask what have you been looking at over the last 50 years when you played our courses or is your age and experience not as far reaching as some? I was under the impression you are a journalist with access to history of our courses back in the 50’s vs. now. Sorry if I have that wrong.

Carts are for those who need them, they are acceptable IMHO as they would not generate any where near the wear and tear, perhaps eliminating the need for the tracks altogether. However, like the Human Rights act, carts have been hijacked, this time by the healthy.

Melvyn

Rob Rigg

  • Total Karma: 0
Re: Is this decade better for GCA than the last?
« Reply #9 on: December 29, 2009, 12:48:50 PM »
Based on the depth and breadth of courses in the 2000s thus far it seems like a continued renaissance has occurred making this the best decade for GCA since the 30s - fingers crossed for the survival of all the true gems.

Per Jim's info - here is a fun head to head match play format of the top ten (with "similar" courses paired where possible).

Sand Hills vs Ballyneal
Kiawah Island (Ocean Course) vs Cape Kid
Bandon Dunes vs Pacific Dunes
Kingsbarns vs Barnbougle Dunes
Whistling Straits (Straits) vs Chambers Bay
Pete Dye Golf Club vs Bandon Trails
Cabo del Sol (Ocean) vs Sebonack
Kapalua (Plantation) vs Friars Head
Wild Horse Golf Club vs Rock Creek Cattle Company
Shadow Creek vs Kingsley Club

And the winner is?


Phil_the_Author

Re: Is this decade better for GCA than the last?
« Reply #10 on: December 29, 2009, 01:47:31 PM »
Kingsbarns opened for play on July 28 in 2000...

Jud_T

  • Total Karma: 0
Re: Is this decade better for GCA than the last?
« Reply #11 on: December 29, 2009, 01:53:07 PM »
Rob,

While there are very encouraging signs for the coming decade with the rise of Doak, Crenshaw, Devries, et. al. I'm afraid that given the economic climate it is VERY unlikely that the teens will be a better decade for GCA... :'(
Golf is a game. We play it. Somewhere along the way we took the fun out of it and charged a premium to be punished.- - Ron Sirak

Scott Warren

  • Total Karma: 0
Re: Is this decade better for GCA than the last?
« Reply #12 on: December 29, 2009, 02:04:09 PM »
May I ask what have you been looking at over the last 50 years when you played our courses or is your age and experience not as far reaching as some? I was under the impression you are a journalist with access to history of our courses back in the 50?s vs. now. Sorry if I have that wrong.

I've been lucky to see some beautiful golf courses in six countries between 120 and <10 years old. None of the great ones have been overrun by carts.

There is so much that is fantastic about golf, especially on your home island, that it saddens me that you seem stuck on perceived negatives on another island 4,000 or so miles away, especially when there is a great movement with a head-full of steam for golf courses that meet your measure of what real golf is.

I agree with you that Gordon Brown is a complete muppet, I guess I just don't see the comparison between him and cart-riders you were making above.

Than ks for the Christmas email, by the way. None of this is personal, just a healthy exchange of differing opinions.