The Quarry - Naples - Hurdzan/Fry

[JC Jones]

I had the opportunity to play The Quarry here in Naples yesterday.  This was my first Hurdzan/Fry course and given the reputation that Calusa Pines -another Hudrzan/Fry effort down here - has (which is basically across the street from The Quarry), I had relatively high expectations. 

Generally, I don't particularly care for "Florida Golf."  Many of the courses are "target" golf and the strategy is usually dictated by which side of the hole the water is on.  Unfortunately, The Quarry provided much of the same.  If I had to sum this course up in one word, that word would be "Typical".  Although there was a bit more movement in the fairways than I generally see, I felt it more than a bit contrived.  The greens were large, and had a lot of movement on the perimeter but many of them lacked internal movement.

Each hole had water on it and the only variation from hole to hole was which side the water was on (see herehttp://glatq.memberstatements.com/tour/tours.cfm?tourid=50199).  The course gets its name from being built on a former limestone quarry so water was expected but still, this was a bit much....  Standing on the 7th green I said to one of my playing partners "the course is in great shape but I feel like I'm playing the same hole over and over again." 

I will say, however, that while the greens did not provide much interest, the surrounds did provide for a variety of shots and many of the greens had false fronts or fell off on one side or the other.

Here are some pictures:

The 1st hole tee shot:



The 1st hole approach:



The 3rd tee (water on the left again):



The 3rd green ("pancake"):



The 4th approach (water on the right this time):



You're starting to get the picture so I'll fast forward to the obligatory Florida "peninsula" par 3 over water:



Finally, the 18th tee (water on the right and left!):




Im not sure how much this course is reflective of Hurdzan/Fry generally as I understand Calusa Pines is much better and fits in with the land it was built on.  Part of the problem with this project could have been that the residential development was restricting the land.  And who knows, the development company (Centex) could have asked for water on every hole as part of this community's marketing is that it is "lake front living" in Florida.  Regardless, this is your typical former swamp built up with a bunch of artificial mounding with water on every hole.  I can see how they could do good work but I think this shows how hard it is to create something from nothing and not make it seem manufactured. 

[Tom_Doak]

JC:

Never heard of that course before.  Is it a new one, or a couple of years old?

[Andy Troeger]

JC,

The thing with Calusa from my understanding is that it was totally created. There is a huge (by Florida standards) hill in the middle of the property. I like the course a lot and think it is deserving of its reputation, but its by no means natural. Some of the holes go through little valleys with the sides built up to create artificial separation. One of the signs of the quality of the course is that it does look good and in some cases it would be fairly convincing that features were there originally if you didn't know you were in SW Florida where everything starts out flat.

From your photos The Quarry does look like a lot of other Florida golf. Unless you have a lot of money to spend and the desire to create something different, you are going to get a lot of similar courses from similar parcels in that area. I will still take Eastwood in Ft. Myers over most of the other courses.

[Steve_ Shaffer]

The Quarry opened a few years ago. The housing component has slowed down considerably here and in the Naples area. I was intrigued by this course when it was announced given the location was a former quarry. It sure doesn't look like it.

Here's the routing:



Holes 4,5&6 do not look like housing is planned.

There is a lot of water:

http://glatq.memberstatements.com/tour/tours.cfm?tourid=50199

[Tom_Doak]

If that map is to scale, it doesn't look like a course you'd want to walk, no matter how flat it is!

[JC Jones]

Tom,

From what I understand it opened about 3 years ago.  I dont think that map is to scale but you can get the picture from it.  There is considerable distance from green to the next tee and there are only a couple holes that you'd be ok to walk to the next tee from.

Steve,

Saying the housing component has slowed down considerably doesn't even capture it.  There were very few houses completed, several where construction had been started but stopped and hundreds of vacant lots. 

[Patrick Hodgdon]

Holes 4,5,6 are "the" holes in the old quarry section which is why there is no planned housing back there. They left a large rock moving crane out there in the middle of those 3 holes that is kind of neat as non-architectural aspects (distractions?) go.

As for this course being a "Hurdzan/Fry" I think I remember Dana Fry saying one time that he had been on the property only once or twice the entire time. My guess is that they got paid a lot of money for their name mostly and the development thought that with Calusa Pines across the street that's all that would matter. (And I think it works/worked somewhat in that most people that play the Quarry don't play at CP but think they are getting something close)

So I would stress not to use the Quarry as a very good example of H/F's gca ability. CP completely blows it out of the water in such a way that it's even hard to compare. It's not even apples to oranges, it's more like apples to fried rice.

[JC Jones]

So I would stress not to use the Quarry as a very good example of H/F's gca ability. CP completely blows it out of the water in such a way that it's even hard to compare. It's not even apples to oranges, it's more like apples to fried rice.

Shrimp or Chicken fried rice?

[Patrick Hodgdon]

So I would stress not to use the Quarry as a very good example of H/F's gca ability. CP completely blows it out of the water in such a way that it's even hard to compare. It's not even apples to oranges, it's more like apples to fried rice.

Shrimp or Chicken fried rice?

Benihana Chicken Fried Rice, the best there is.

[Steve_ Shaffer]

The club appears to be private although one can be  a "member for a day."

http://glatq.memberstatements.com/tour/tours.cfm?tourid=46729

[Morgan Clawson]

I feel like I've played those holes many times in SW Florida.  Yawn.  The lack of originality down there is really stunning.

[Steve_ Shaffer]

The Senior Tour will be at The Quarry during the week of February 8, 2010. Catch the action on TV.

[John_Conley]

I feel like I've played those holes many times in SW Florida.  Yawn.  The lack of originality down there is really stunning.

Morgan:

A few years ago I had a chance to hear Dr. Hurdzan speak about the constraints they deal with in the Naples market.  Trucking in fill is 10x the cost of digging out ponds to build up the fairways.  (Fairway elevation is dictated by Army Corps of Engineers and has to do with flood plains.)

The courses down there look the same because they have to.  Not a lack of creativity as much as a lack of unlimited resources.

Dr. Hurdzan explained what they did at Calusa by building three mounds - big, bigger, huge - out of the fill from the ponds they dug.  Most projects don't have the budget, which is why Quarry doesn't wow you like CP does.

[JC Jones]

John,

Correct me if I'm wrong (and please do; or Patrick please do), but what I understand of Calusa is that no only does it not play like typical Florida golf, but it also looks different too.  What I understand is that it fits in much more with the natural environment that it is in as opposed to Quarry which looks like a giant manufactured course.

Am I way off base?  I just can't believe that the difference in the two courses is simply the budget they had for building mounds because there are some pretty big face mounds at The Quarry.

[Patrick Hodgdon]

John,

Correct me if I'm wrong (and please do; or Patrick please do), but what I understand of Calusa is that no only does it not play like typical Florida golf, but it also looks different too.  What I understand is that it fits in much more with the natural environment that it is in as opposed to Quarry which looks like a giant manufactured course.

Am I way off base?  I just can't believe that the difference in the two courses is simply the budget they had for building mounds because there are some pretty big face mounds at The Quarry.

Jason-

A very high majority (pretty much everyone) that plays Calusa and doesn't know the story behind the construction is amazed when you tell them the course's elevation is completely man-made. I don't remember the exact number but I think it's like some 6,000 native trees and plants were handpicked for all the areas that were manufactured/raised. (which is a lot of area I should add)

From the H/F website on Calusa:

The landforms are so soft, and flowing that they blend in well enough to appear natural and unique. Combined with extensive native plant vegetation it is difficult to imagine the golf course was built, instead of simply laid out on this superb piece of land.

http://www.hurdzanfry.com/Translation_English/HTML/COURSES/Calusa_Pines/COURSE_MASTER.html


As an example every tree in this picture was handpicked and planted on the new elevation.

[JC Jones]

Patrick,

This is exactly how I interpret what Tom Doak says.  Use the natural features to the extent possible and when (parts of) the course have to be created, make them look as though they were there before the course.

Calusa (apparently) does this.  The Quarry, and 99% of Florida golf courses, do not.

[John_Conley]

Calusa (apparently) does this.  The Quarry, and 99% of Florida golf courses, do not.

Take a look around much of Florida and let me know what 'natural features' there are.  Dr. Hurdzan explained that the Army Corps says you have to build up a course in Naples around 4" or so (IIRC).

Calusa is man-made.

[Patrick Hodgdon]

Calusa (apparently) does this.  The Quarry, and 99% of Florida golf courses, do not.

Take a look around much of Florida and let me know what 'natural features' there are.  Dr. Hurdzan explained that the Army Corps says you have to build up a course in Naples around 4" or so (IIRC).

Calusa is man-made.

John - I think Jason's point was that Calusa follows Doak's line of thinking in that what needs to be created is built to look natural. It just so happens a majority of it was needed to be created to make an interesting course in this area. The 99% of other courses don't create anything and the land itself is mostly uninteresting.

The problem is the land down here just doesn't lend itself too well to making interesting golf architecture.

KBM did a nice job of using a lot of natural features at The Hideout (H/F also did this somewhat at Naples National) by exposing a lot of the land and natural Florida sandy soil used in waste areas, etc. That being said IIRC the water there is also man-made so even it has an element of being created.