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Mike_Young

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Re: Has this site helped create a revisionist history for GCA?
« Reply #75 on: December 11, 2009, 05:21:50 PM »
Hmmm..seems this thread has sort of explained the very question I was asking ;) ;) ;)

Mike Young,

See what you started?  I bet you did it on purpose.  There must be a lull in your busy schedlue.

We need to appoint a judge to mediate this site, complete with powers to hold bad actors in contempt.  Perhaps we can create an "Objection- asked and answer emoticon".  No one should be subjected to the pestering minutae over such relatively unimportant matters.  Is adding 300 yards to a 6300 yard golf course shortly after opening a major change?  Perhaps not today, but back then, I would say so.  Others may disagree and that's fine.  

I can't remember the year I opened courses 10 years ago  or was it nine? ;D   And of course I did not start this on purpose ;D and that is a written fact so if someone later saya they "think" I did.....well I don't know ;D
"just standing on a corner in Winslow Arizona"

TEPaul

Re: Has this site helped create a revisionist history for GCA?
« Reply #76 on: December 11, 2009, 05:39:27 PM »
MikeyY:

Do you think you're actually a golf course "architect" or a golf course "builder?" If that question is too much for you to handle I suggest you get in touch with Tom MacWood and ask him what you are and then you'll know for sure. If his answer "revises" your career and your job description, HEY, that's what these expert historical researcher/analyst/writers are here for!  ;)

DMoriarty

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Has this site helped create a revisionist history for GCA?
« Reply #77 on: December 11, 2009, 05:40:44 PM »
Lou,

Hmmm..seems this thread has sort of explained the very question I was asking ;) ;) ;)

Mike Young,

See what you started?  I bet you did it on purpose.  There must be a lull in your busy schedlue.

We need to appoint a judge to mediate this site, complete with powers to hold bad actors in contempt.  Perhaps we can create an "Objection- asked and answered emoticon".  No one should be subjected to the pestering minutae over such relatively unimportant matters.  Is adding 300 yards to a 6300 yard golf course shortly after opening a major change?  Perhaps not today, but back then, I would say so.  Others may disagree and that's fine.  

Lou,  Phil came on here with and rather indignantly offered up this convoluted story about how the early history of this course. Surely it is not unreasonable to question him or ask that he substantiate his story?    Is this children's story hour where we listen politely while trying not to nod off, or is it a  discussion group? 
Golf history can be quite interesting if you just let your favorite legends go and allow the truth to take you where it will.
--Tom MacWood (1958-2012)

Mike_Young

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Has this site helped create a revisionist history for GCA?
« Reply #78 on: December 11, 2009, 05:43:44 PM »
MikeyY:

Do you think you're actually a golf course "architect" or a golf course "builder?" If that question is too much for you to handle I suggest you get in touch with Tom MacWood and ask him what you are and then you'll know for sure. If his answer "revises" your career and your job description, HEY, that's what these expert historical researcher/analyst/writers are here for!  ;)
Tommy P,
The way I see it..if my name is on it then whatever they put after it is extra.....designer/builder/architect who cares.....just keep me busy... ;D
"just standing on a corner in Winslow Arizona"

TEPaul

Re: Has this site helped create a revisionist history for GCA?
« Reply #79 on: December 11, 2009, 05:48:15 PM »
MikeyY:

I would bet both Seth Raynor AND Robert White probably felt about the same that way as you do.  ;)

But in the future, I suggest you put it in your contract that whatever any club you create a golf course for wants to call you that at their next annual meeting whatever they call you they also add that you are the best in America at it.

By the way, Mikey, or anyone else, would you mind doing like a one sentence synopsis of post #68 for me? I don't dare look at it because at my advanced age laughing too hard is generally not a good idea.  ;)
« Last Edit: December 11, 2009, 06:03:46 PM by TEPaul »

Mike_Young

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Re: Has this site helped create a revisionist history for GCA?
« Reply #80 on: December 11, 2009, 06:20:44 PM »
MikeyY:



By the way, Mikey, or anyone else, would you mind doing like a one sentence synopsis of post #68 for me? I don't dare look at it because at my advanced age laughing too hard is generally not a good idea.  ;)

Tommy P,
Ok..let me try to understand it...
Seems like we are not sure of when it opened....but we know it did open..either 88 years ago or 87 and right after it did there was a big flood and they closed it and made some changes....then they opened it again....and all was happy ever after...
Now Tilly was glad to do the work once and then redo it again I am sure but he probably could not have told you any of this other than whether he got paid for what he did.....
I actually read somewhere that the history of the pyramids was off by about 2 years...they had some floods and the architect that had started that project was pretty upset with the guy that finished it....had all the dates wrong...but turned out to be a pretty good project.... ;D
"just standing on a corner in Winslow Arizona"

Phil_the_Author

Re: Has this site helped create a revisionist history for GCA?
« Reply #81 on: December 11, 2009, 07:15:19 PM »
I have been encouraged by many to continue posting and so will give it one final try.

Tom, you wrote, "Phil, Your story makes no sense." Actually it simply makes no sense to you. Yet it is exactly what happened.

"A complete overhaul or redesign to most objective viewers is not lengthening a course by 200 or 300 yards. It is moving greens, moving fairways, moving holes, creating new holes.....why in the hell would they do that one year after the course opened? When they overhauled the course did they also rip out the new watering system and re-install a completely new one? Please explain what exactly was overhauled."

As I previously stated, there were too many changes to detail them all on here. In a nutshell, every green was rebuilt with many being changed, fairways were realigned and in a few cases drastically because of the new tees installed on nearly every hole. 300 yards were added overall with as much as 50 yards on individual holes. Numerous bunkers were relocated and a number were added. And all this was done just one year after it opened for play...

You stated, "By the way that is not an aerial...that picture is a drawing, and it was attached to an unattributed article in Golf Illustrated in 1934, when Tilly was the editor. I'd say there is a 50/50 chance he was the author. In the article he talks about the course being inspired by PV; he talks about only nine holes being finished and in play in 1922; he talks about the full 18 being ready in the fall of 1923; he talks about the condition of the turf being well-knit once the course matured; he does not talk about the course being completely overhauled a year after it opened."

Lets see how many ways this is incorrect, though some are understandable. It IS an aerial. It was taken in 1926 and is in possession of the club. I am assuming the article you refer to is found in the November 1934 issue on p. 20-21 and is titled "And They Built A Course By The Trinity River." I also believe that you referenced this article from the book "Gleanings From The Wayside" on. p.27-28. The reason I believe this is because there is photograph in question IS NOT PART OF THE GOLF ILLUSTRATED ARTICLE.

When the trilogy of books on Tilly's writings were compiled, a layout problem occurred for many of the articles requiring 'fillers' to be added so that the entire page would be complete. This is an example. They included the aerial even though it wasn't in the original article. By the way, the book titles the photograph "Airplane View Of Brook Hollow G.C., 1926"; no mention anywhere that it is a drawing.

This aerial had been published previously in several places including the Dallas Morning News. Again, I have seen both the original photograph and its negative. The club has them.

Yes, Tilly wrote the article and yes, it states, "Although complete plans were drawn, only nine holes were finished and played during 1922, but the fall of the next year found the eighteen completed."

Tilly was WRONG. He wrote this article from memory and simply remembered it incorrectly. Let me show you the proof.

First of all, this wasn't the first time that an incorrect date for the club opening for play has been given and accepted. At one time it was reported that the front nine opened for play in October 1920. How do we know that is incorrect? The proof of this can be found in an article found in the Dallas Morning News on December 7, 1920. Tillinghast is quoted as saying, “Brook Hollow is coming up to every expectation. Nine holes will be ready for play next May and the remaining nine should be completed by next fall.” In this same December article he stated that “fine turf was underway” intimating that the grass was not yet ready for play.
 
On June 19th 1921, the Dallas Morning News reports on the continued progress being made at Brook Hollow. After stating that, “Nine of these holes have been completed and are being played upon Saturday afternoons and Sundays,” it goes on to report that the Club announces further course and club improvements. These will include the opening of the second nine holes, “Which are laid out and will be ready for play soon,” will be opened after the grass is grown-in. Also, the Club will be getting a new clubhouse that will cost an estimated $30,000 replacing the current one upon which the Club spent approximately $8-10,000.

It turns out that this report was only partially correct as the clubs own board minutes state that play was severely limited and allowed for but a very short period of time. Still, in celebration of the 4th of July in 1921, the Dallas Morning News reports that on this date a single day of play on the entire unfinished 18 hole golf course commences with a flag tournament which was won by Cameron Buxton. Collett Munger finished second. The entire course is in rough condition and play is still limited to the weekends primarily on the first nine holes only.

On October 28, 1922 the entire 18 holes of the Brook Hollow Golf Club is officially opened for play for the first time that afternoon. The opening ceremonies included the club President driving a ball from the first tee down between the caddies who were lined up on both sides of the fairway. The one who recovered the ball was rewarded with being allowed to “draw down five berries.”
      A membership tournament is held with prizes awarded for best net and gross medal scores and a blind bogey.
      The article mentions that “C.H. Munger holds the current course record with a 33” and then that, “There are no two holes at brook Hollow alike. Each has a distinctiveness of its own. There are no parallel holes. The holes range in distance from 125 to 575 yards in length. There is only one water hole on the course. No. 8 hole is only 150 yards in length, the tee situated on a high bluff, and the shot is played over a small lake, the green being right at the bank of the lake. The course is 6,300 yards long and the par is 70.” A complete list of yardage and par by hole is shown in the appendix to this document.

Here is the article:



So Tilly simply got his dates mixed up. I imagine it was the 1922 date for the opening of the first nine holes as that happened in 1921. He correctly remembered that it was in the fall of the following year (October 28, 1922) that the course was officially opened for unlimited play to all of the membership.

Finally, you are correct. Tilly did not mention the overhaul of the course the following year. SO WHAT! It happened and the proof can be found in numerous other Dallas Morning News articles, and FAR MORE IMPORTANTLY, in the minutes and notes of the board meetings.

You make a big deal out of the idea that course changes were done so soon after the course opened as if that never occurred. C'mon Tom, you know full well that occurred at any number of courses back then and even today. If someone doesn't like the way it turned out they are quite willing to make changes, including dramatic ones.

In fact, that was actually the case at Brook Hollow. Though they weren't considering the major changes that the drought and floods would allow them to do, on February 2, 1923, in the minutes of the annual meeting of the Brook Hollow Golf Club, the following note is found:
 
     “Mr. Buxton, for the Ground Committee, made a verbal report of the work of that committee, referring to the changes on the course, and the expenditures for ground improvements, etc…” [bold and italics mine]

They were already tinkering with the course on their own! These were minor changes, yet the course was only open for play LESS THAN TWO MONTHS and they were making changes.

Tom, your understanding of what happened at Brook Hollow is incorrect. In fact there are many more documents, notes, meeting minutes and newspaper accounts to back all that I wrote and more.

Its time you simply accept the truth of what happened whether you "understand" it or not...

« Last Edit: December 12, 2009, 10:18:41 AM by Philip Young »

DMoriarty

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Re: Has this site helped create a revisionist history for GCA?
« Reply #82 on: December 11, 2009, 09:19:13 PM »
Phil,  You've just sited all the same information I have been trying to bring to your attention.   But you still have not answered my questions or explained the timing and duration of these supposed repairs.  If, as you say, every green was rebuilt, then surely they had to close the course at some point.  When was that?    You previously imply that the course was basically closed in 1923, but the newspaper records do not reflect that. 

Again, could you address by questions above?   I have trouble seeing how a 1922 flood could have closed an open course beginning in the spring of 1923.
Golf history can be quite interesting if you just let your favorite legends go and allow the truth to take you where it will.
--Tom MacWood (1958-2012)

TEPaul

Re: Has this site helped create a revisionist history for GCA?
« Reply #83 on: December 11, 2009, 09:30:39 PM »
MikeyY:

Thank you so much for your synopsis on post #68 and Brook Hollow. I had no idea at all it was that central to the evolution or perhaps the very survival of GCA. Thanks for explaining it to me as you did.

Do you think the entire history of golf course architecture should be revised depending on whether Brook Hollow was completely redesigned within a year or whether it was 6,300 or 6500 yards?
« Last Edit: December 11, 2009, 09:33:06 PM by TEPaul »

Phil_the_Author

Re: Has this site helped create a revisionist history for GCA?
« Reply #84 on: December 11, 2009, 10:56:34 PM »
David,

Your problem is that you aren't reading what I've written correctly.

You wrote, "I have trouble seeing how a 1922 flood could have closed an open course beginning in the spring of 1923." [MY highlights]

Every part of that statement is INCORRECT!

On page 1 of this thread in post #29 I wrote, "Sorry, but that aerial is the course AFTER its FIRST major set of changes. It opened for play on October 28, 1922. It measured 6,300 yards. In 1923 the course was nearly destroyed by a devastating drought that burnt off almost all of the turf and left the ground parched and cracked. This was followed by a series of severe late summer thunderstorms that flooded the entire property. It was these TWO weather related problems that nearly destroyed the course by the end of the summer of 1923.

The answers to all of your questions are contained in my different posts.

David you also are misleading and it is your turn to "man up" so to speak. You write, "Phil,  You've just sited all the same information I have been trying to bring to your attention."

That, of course  isn't true as I, in the response I made that you are referring to, quoted from several articles NOT mentioned yet and then I quoted directly from BOARD MEETING MINUTES. WHEN and WHERE did you ever do that? Since you have never seen them we both know the answer.

You continued, "But you still have not answered my questions or explained the timing and duration of these supposed repairs.  If, as you say, every green was rebuilt, then surely they had to close the course at some point.  When was that?" Again, as I have stated in several different ways, AFTER the flood problems they closed the course for regular play for the majority of the rest of the year. It was opened for some very restricted events and for minimal play of several holes only on few occasions until the course was finished. It was only AFTER that, that the course was re-opened for normal play AFTER the first of the year in February of 1924.

You also stated that, "You previously imply that the course was basically closed in 1923, but the newspaper records do not reflect that." Once again you misread what I wrote, for I NEVER said that nor implied it.

The course was open for normal play until midway through the drought when the damage was becoming extreme leaving much of the course, putting greens included, bare of grass, parched and cracked open. The sprinkler system could no longer draw water from the Trinity River and despite their efforts to jury rig a tractor to pump it into the system, the damage was severe and had been done. THAT was followed by the severe thunderstorms and flash floods that washed away a great deal of the exposed topsoil and damaged what was left of the turf further.

All of that information is contained in club records that I have seen and copied and agreed not to publish at this point. I am able to quote some of it with their permission. I am not quoting anywhere near the amount of information that it contains and I won't.

If you don't want to trust that I have quoted the information properly that is certainly your privilege...

DMoriarty

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Has this site helped create a revisionist history for GCA?
« Reply #85 on: December 12, 2009, 01:50:51 AM »
Phillip,

You aren't reading what I wrote.

1. The flood was 1922, not 1923.   The second nine was supposed to open in fall of 1921, but didn't open until fall of 1922?  Why?   Perhaps because there was a drought in the summer and fall of 1921, torrential rains and flooding in the spring of 1922, and a drought in the summer and early fall of 1922.  

2.  The course served a heavy tournament schedule in the second half of 1923.  Independence day tournament, realtor's tournament, weekly team tournaments, a month long matchplay tournament, tournaments up through November.   No indication that course was closed and rebuilt.  No way it was closed or even partially closed for rebuilding, unless they were having weekly tournaments on a partially closed course. Again, I think you have your years wrong.  

3.  According to the records you quoted, the flood preceded the drought, not visa versa.  You've apparently got the chronology all screwed up.  

4.  You keep saying you have answered the questions, but you haven't.   Quote for me where the committee says that every green was rebuilt?   Quote for me where the committee says that the course was almost destroyed in 1923?  You haven't.

Seriously, Phillip.  Quit being so god-damned defensive and just recheck your dates.  Take a step back, a deep breath, and recheck your dates.   1922 had record rainfall (most since 1908) in a very short time.  The Trinity was a mile wide at Dallas.  It was a severe flood and it was followed by many months of drought.    Nothing like that happened in 1923.  
« Last Edit: December 12, 2009, 01:56:18 AM by DMoriarty »
Golf history can be quite interesting if you just let your favorite legends go and allow the truth to take you where it will.
--Tom MacWood (1958-2012)

Phil_the_Author

Re: Has this site helped create a revisionist history for GCA?
« Reply #86 on: December 12, 2009, 07:11:21 AM »
David, I'm sure you'll find this hard to believe, that despite being certain that I have the facts correct and properly dated I went back and checked through the COPIES of the DATED BOARD MINUTES I have in my possession.

BEFORE I provide the proof, consider what YOU wrote. I ask, in ANY of this, where is YOUR PROOF? You offer NO documentation and what you write is mere SPECULATION:

1. The flood was 1922, not 1923.   The second nine was supposed to open in fall of 1921, but didn't open until fall of 1922?  Why?   Perhaps because there was a drought in the summer and fall of 1921, torrential rains and flooding in the spring of 1922, and a drought in the summer and early fall of 1922. 

PERHAPS? And yet you are so quick to DEMAND "Quote for me..." several times.

There was high water from torrential rain in 1922 and there was concern over possible flooding. You can look it up in the APRIL issues of the Dallas Morning News. But that isn't what held back the opening of the course until October of 1922. The course was basically finished by July 4th 1921, but there was a serious turf problem. This would eventually cause the entire course to have its turf replaced and THAT was the hold-up. This began in the late fall of 1921 when they had first expected to be open for play. Summer in Dallas is NOT the time to open a course and so even though it was reasonably ready for play the summer of 1922, they chose to err on the side of caution and waited until October. ALL of that information is in their records.

But what about the drought and flood that damaged the course?

On February 2nd, 1924, the meeting notes and minutes for the annual meeting of the Brook Hollow Golf Club contains the following. Remember, this is the ANNUAL meeting so EVERYTHING that is mentioned in the notes took place the PREVIOUS YEAR of 1923:

      “Your Grounds Committee reports that with the exception of eliminating a few rough spots, which work is now being finished, the Brook Hollow golf course is complete, according to the plans made by Golf Architect, Tillinghast. The length of the course can be made anywhere between 6,200 and 6,600 yards, according to where the two markers are placed on the tee. There is a variety of golf shots that can be equaled on few courses. The construction of the greens is along modern lines, undulating and well trapped...
      “The severe heat and drought of this last summer caused quite a little damage and expense, but Messrs. Dexter, Jacoby and Tyler rigged up a Ford tractor on the river bank and soon had sufficient water to take care of our needs.
      “The entire course is now piped. All fairways and greens can be watered at short notice. At some future day we will need a larger engine and pumping plant on the river, but for the present the out-put we have will do. The cost of finishing the course has exceeded our original estimate, due to excessive floods causing washouts and then droughts which made it necessary to re-seed and spot sod some of the greens and fairways several times. Recently we had the highest water since 1908. It was several feet deep over the 14th and 15th tees and partly out in the 15th fairway, but the turf was sufficiently strong to hold and no damage resulted. Our expense from floods and droughts in the future should not amount to very much.
      “Your committee wants to call attention to the faithful work of our Superintendent Tyler. At all times he has given us his best efforts and what errors have been made are to be charged against us and not him.”

Notice that what had been a finished course on 10/28/1922 now had fairways and greens that needed to be "reseeded and spot sodded SEVERAL TIMES" because of the drought and torrential rains.

So the records of the club recorded at the time the events occurred state that the drought & floods which damaged the course occurred in 1923! Note that the drought was "last summer" and the flood occurred later. It was at that time that the water crested the Trinity River by the Brook Hollow Golf Club and flooded out onto the course. By the way, there was NO MENTION in the 1923 annual meeting minutes and year-end report of any weather-related problems suffered by the club in 1922. There was also no mention of weather-related problems in any of the 1922 monthly board meetings either. There was the report about the turf problems and the waiting on opening day, but I guess they simply didn't know what year and the events they were writing about.

The Dallas Morning News reported on the heavy flooding of the Trinity River in the latter part of September. This is EXACTLY what I have stated throughout my posts and yet you stated:

3.  According to the records you quoted, the flood preceded the drought, not visa versa.  You've apparently got the chronology all screwed up. 

David, it is YOU who has the chronology screwed-up.

In addition, the minutes show that the newly reconstructed course was now finished "according to the plans made by golf architect, A.W. Tillinghast." Which plans were these? Certainly NOT his original design as that was for a course that was only 6,300 yards at its greatest length. No, the redesigned course now had MULTIPLE TEES, something that it lacked in 1922, and now was 300 yards longer at 6,600 yards. This separate from all the other changes done. But of course this is no proof that the course was "rebuilt" as you claim in point 2.

2.  The course served a heavy tournament schedule in the second half of 1923.  Independence day tournament, realtor's tournament, weekly team tournaments, a month long matchplay tournament, tournaments up through November.   No indication that course was closed and rebuilt.  No way it was closed or even partially closed for rebuilding, unless they were having weekly tournaments on a partially closed course. Again, I think you have your years wrong. 

Were you aware that the Dallas Country Club gave full access to the members of Brook Hollow to play and even use their course for tournaments during 1923 after the damage occurred? That tidbit of information is also contained in the board meeting minutes and notes. No maybe you can explain to me WHY they would do that if the Brook Hollow golf course was OPEN FOR GENERAL PLAY? The fact is that it wasn't! This agreement actually served both clubs well in the years that followed because on several occasions, for example when the Dallas CC changed sites, their members were granted full playing privileges for the duration of the build at Brook Hollow.

4.  You keep saying you have answered the questions, but you haven't.   Quote for me where the committee says that every green was rebuilt?   Quote for me where the
committee says that the course was almost destroyed in 1923?  You haven't.

Sorry David, I've done enough quoting for now. What I have directly quoted is more than enough proof to verify that the course was severely damaged to the extent that is was nearly destroyed in 1923 and then completely redesigned and reconstructed. As I have said, there is a great deal more information contained in the club's records that not only backs up everything I've stated but goes even further.

A final note. I'm sorry if you think I am being "so god-damned defensive" but that only started AFTER Tom stated that I was "playing my usual games" and you said that I was spouting "legends."

It is time for you to take a step back and take a REALLY deep breath and admit that your understanding of both the events and what brook hollow did in building the original course and then redesigning and reconstructing it the following year has been incorrect.

Regardless of whether you do or not, there is nothing more for me to add to this "discussion."


Tom MacWood

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Has this site helped create a revisionist history for GCA?
« Reply #87 on: December 12, 2009, 09:50:33 AM »
I don't think these articles will shed any light on the supposed overhaul of BHGC, but here are a number of articles regarding the early development of the course in chronologic order.

Nothing Phil has presented to date supports his claim the course was overhauled one year after it was constructed. All the evidence points to the course experiencing some grow in problems the result of some severe weather. This appears to be a case of trying manipulate the history in order to make a personal point. This could have been finished in one post, present a brief account of what was changed (if the info exists) and bam, this whole thing is over. But it has dragged on for several lengthy posts and will continue to drag on for several more lengthy posts. The sad thing being lost in all of this is the fact that Brook Hollow was an extraordinary design, and one of Tilly's greatest. Tilly deserves better.
« Last Edit: December 12, 2009, 09:52:38 AM by Tom MacWood »

Mike_Young

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Has this site helped create a revisionist history for GCA?
« Reply #88 on: December 12, 2009, 09:54:51 AM »
I may have created the perfect thread here.....just a basic loop where no one gets the last word....they just can't help it ;D ;D
"just standing on a corner in Winslow Arizona"

Jim_Kennedy

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Has this site helped create a revisionist history for GCA?
« Reply #89 on: December 12, 2009, 10:01:51 AM »
Mike,
You are the Dr. Frankenstein of GCA.  ;D

I think it's about time for the interested parties to have themselves a three (I think it's three) way telephone call so they can sort this all out. I'd be willing to bet that will be enough to resolve any questions about dates, amount and time of revisions, etc..

"I never beat a well man in my life" - Harry Vardon

Phil_the_Author

Re: Has this site helped create a revisionist history for GCA?
« Reply #90 on: December 12, 2009, 10:17:28 AM »
This was evidently a wasted effort. I apologize to all who had to watch the silliness... My part is absolutely done...
« Last Edit: December 12, 2009, 10:19:55 AM by Philip Young »

Tom MacWood

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Has this site helped create a revisionist history for GCA?
« Reply #91 on: December 12, 2009, 11:30:31 AM »
Phil
If you wanted to make the point the course closed in 1923 because of damage or maintenance issues due to severe weather no one would have batted an eye, but none is buying your suggestion the course was completely overhauled / significantly redesigned at that early stage. That opinion is borne out by the fact you have not been able to give us any documented proof of what specifically was changed - lengthening a course and resurfacing greens or fairways are not considered a design overhaul.

Here is an old aerial of BHGC in 1930. The quality is not the greatest, but you can already see a number of the bunkers have been turfed over.

DMoriarty

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Has this site helped create a revisionist history for GCA? New
« Reply #92 on: December 12, 2009, 12:13:54 PM »
Mike,   what you and others fail to understand is that sometimes getting things right is a tedious process.  Most would rather just say to hell with it, and leave it be, even though they know it isn't quite right.  And that circles us back to your complaints in the original post, where people are presenting histories and understanding of courses that annoy you because they don't accurately reflect what happened.  

On the one hand, you are demanding accurate histories and imploring us to be very careful, and on the other hand you are mocking us for taking the time and effort to try and get it right.   You can't have it both ways.  

Or was your original post just pointless bitching?

______________________________________________________

Phil,

1.  The board notes don't say the flood was in 1923, the notes say "recently."  The flood that raised the water levels to levels unseen since 1908 occurred in 1922, not 1923.    We need not rely on minutes to determine the date of a major flood.  Despite the infallibility of board scribes, others tend to notice such events as well.

2.  According to your own quotes of the board, the flood occurred before the drought.  


3.  I know there was a drought in 1921.  I mentioned it above.  But a drought in the summer and fall of 1921 would not delay the course until fall of 1922.    There was a flood, and then another drought in 1922.  I find it incredible that you refuse to acknowledge this.   Floods aren't a matter of interpretation for the board to decide.  They are major events.

4.  How is it again that they were playing tournaments virtually every week on a course that you think was closed or virtually closed for repairs in the second half of 1923?

4.  You seem to have nothing to substantiate your claim the the course was redesigned in 1923, except for the fact that the reported yardage changed.   As far as I can tell, the reported yardage changed from 6500 in 1921, to 6300, then to 6100-6600.    There are more logical explanations for such reports than that the entire course has been redesigned and every green rebuilt and many bunkers moved.  Based on what has been presented thus far, all that stuff seems more fantasy than fact.

Bottom line, Phil, based on the newspaper accounts and your presentation of what the board said, it seems the damage to the course was done before it opened, and the course was repaired and then the course opened a year after planned.

Maybe you got the date of the board meeting wrong.

« Last Edit: December 12, 2009, 12:42:08 PM by DMoriarty »
Golf history can be quite interesting if you just let your favorite legends go and allow the truth to take you where it will.
--Tom MacWood (1958-2012)

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