[TEPaul]

I'm with you Brian---I second that.

Mr. Jeffrey, Sir:

Why don't you just endeavor to start another thread on the same subject and the next time I will just endeavor to agree with everything you say---I promise! 

[TEPaul]

Hey, look, all you lounge-loving SOBs and slackers-----get up and get yourselves in formation and salute because Captain Tom MacWood has just returned to the ship after an inexplicable hiatus of 37 hours or so.

If you good-for-nothings act the part maybe he will actually deign to answer that good man, Sir Admiral Jeffrey Brauer's initial query on this thread!

[Tim_Cronin]

Even after going through each post, I can't imagine why people are criticizing Jeff Brauer because he asked someone with what I guess is a great deal of research material what he might do with that material down the line. It's a perfectly logical question. I say that and post this not because of someone feeling offended in the past -- life is too short to act like an idiot -- but because I've got a ton of material myself, picked up while researching books.

Does it stay in the family? Go to a regional golf association? A university library? The USGA (which surely has all the magazines, but likely not the newspaper material, and perhaps not the interview tapes), which isn't exactly around the corner from Chicago?

I'm planning to be around for a long time, but it's a question worth asking, and I thank Jeff for bringing it up.

[Jeff_Brauer]

Tim,

Well, it is a rather indelicate question, isn't it?  No big whup. I have been in contact with TMac and think he understands and fully understand DM's point of view given some past "hostilities."

BTW, I should have listed you and Sean Tully as two others on this site that I know have done a lot of research we would all be interested. I was looking through the Medinah book last night when trying to fall asleep.  No, wait, that doesn' sound right!  I usually flip through my gca books, which are of great interest, last thing at night before falling asleep.  I have really enjoyed that one given my history at Medinah.  IF you ever want to do a history of Chitown golf, give me a call.  In 1982 I did a list of courses designed and remodelled around Chicago, based on Whitten, my own knowledge and another list by a college professor.

[TEPaul]

TimC and JeffB:

By the way, it is the USGA's new Architecture Archive component's intention to take all RELEVENT golf architectural material from any source and put it on their Internet website for anyone to access from anywhere in the world. It will CONSIDER material from any and all sources. However, we do understand that various people would prefer to hold onto their own material for whatever their reasons. Obviously some will want to use it themselves to promote themselves and their own particular interests in some way---eg articles, essays, books or whatever----even just piecemeal presentation on here as various subjects and questions arise. There is no doubt that valuable material presentation is some form of currency to some people. That's understandable and we all need to realize that and deal with it. We even face the question and problem of privacy or copyright issues from time to time. It's always been that way and probably always will be that way.

[Jeff_Brauer]

TePaul,

Good morning.  I would also love to hear more about the whole USGA program, for obvious reasons.

I am no historian, but I imagine that quickly determining what is "relevant" gca material might be a lot like an insurance guy determining what is an "unnecessary" medical procedure.  How do you know (in some cases) until that medical test is done and the result is negative?  Or, how will the USGA know something is worthless, since they will always have a chance that someone could come up with corroborating evidence.  Just a thought.

In some cases, it is easy.  When my father died, we donated all his stuff to the Museum of the Pacific War down in Fredericksburg, TX. I was going through an old box the other day and found some material that they had returned to my mother.  They had a nice cut off - any record of his service that dated past the end of the war got sent back as not being of interest. 

As to promoting themselves, I would wager that anyone who contributes an article that in essence takes years to produce, probably gets $0 to $450 from the magazine.  Since the monetary value of such historical writing is so low, I will give anyone who does it credit for doing it sollely for the love of the subject and "promoting themselves" has sort of a negative connotation that they probably don't deserve, given the time they devote to our favorite subject.  If they get a few "atta boys" out of the golf club atlas crowd for their work, well, its the little things that keep most of us going!

[tlavin]

So the Tiger thread gets deleted and we get more whining, gnashing of teeth and childish chatter about ninety-year old newspaper articles.  But I guess it's on topic!

[TEPaul]

"TePaul,
Good morning.  I would also love to hear more about the whole USGA program, for obvious reasons."

Mr Jeffrey, Sir;

A good morning to you, and then so you shall hear more on this whole USGA program and for obvious reasons. On some reflection I think it may be best to sick you onto one Robert Crosby of Atlanta Georgia, august lawyer, intellectual, historian, organizer par excellence, very fine golfer, Harvard grad, and all thrown together perhaps the closest thng we can find today to the great Atlantan and golfer Bob Jones, etc, etc, etc. Or I will sick him on you! How do you like them apples?

I think that would be best and/or better than me because for some dynamical reasons on here I seem to be too much the critical lightening rod and I don't want any lightening strikes from this website on to the USGA's good and burgeoning Architecture Archive effort and program.

I think you are about to enter into an enlightening and enlightened world of historical understanding from which there will be no turning back.

Are you ready and prepared to proceed, my good man?

[TEPaul]

"As to promoting themselves, I would wager that anyone who contributes an article that in essence takes years to produce, probably gets $0 to $450 from the magazine.  Since the monetary value of such historical writing is so low, I will give anyone who does it credit for doing it sollely for the love of the subject and "promoting themselves" has sort of a negative connotation that they probably don't deserve, given the time they devote to our favorite subject.  If they get a few "atta boys" out of the golf club atlas crowd for their work, well, its the little things that keep most of us going!"


You are absolutely right about that Jeffrey; it is undeniable, it is natural and it is reality. However, the very fact that you said it, and said it the way you did, put in my mind perhaps some interesting compromise ideas that might be beneficial to all involved.

[Jeff_Brauer]

TePaul,

You throw in 72 virgins and I am there, man!

[TEPaul]

Mr. Jeffrey:

17 virgins is my final counter offer.

These are hard times, don't you know? That national golf associations are a little low on virgins this year and probably will be in the next few years as well.

[Mac Plumart]

I think when you guys talk about the USGA archives you are talking about the online site where you can go and download all sorts of cool stuff right?  I remember old magazines from the early 1900's, golf course plans, pictures, etc.

If that is it...that is awesome stuff.  There has to be an actual library where you can go...but that is too much for most people to make that trip.  But the availability to download this stuff any day, anywhere it totally cool.

So the thought of these top notch researchers (or really anyone with interseting research) donating to the archives is pretty cool. 

And I think Jeff and Tom P...bring up great points.  Dedicated and serious historians can not let the works of Tom Macwood, Phil Young, Tom Paul, George Bahto, etc...simply disappear at any time.  I think their work must be preserved, archived, and available to study.  If we can build this thing out, keep and preserve it, then researchers in the future can build off of it and discover the actual facts on these matters.

Frankly, some of the discussion on this site should be kept and preserved for future generations of reseachers.

back to work...

[Mac Plumart]

You know, frankly, what you guys all bring to the table is amazing...the research, the knowledge, etc...and the fighting and aruging in just part of it all.

I am reading The Spirit of St. Andrews right now and in the first few chapters Mackenzie talks about his arguments with Colt.  He says that when they were arguing they thought that what they were arguing about was the most important topic in the world and that their view point was vital to defend.  But as time past, I think he saw that wasn't the case.  They both brought something important to the table and both viewpoints were valid.  Mackenzie even said that his views were so radical and revolutionary that if Colt let him do things completely his way it probably would have backfired because people weren't ready for it.  So, their give and take worked out for the best interests of golf.

I am working from complete memory here, so I will have definately screwed up the exact words...but the point is valid.

We will argue on this site, views will be defended, egos will be bruised...but in the grand scheme of golf's legacy and uncovering knowledge...who gives a rip!!!  Let's keep working and challenging each other...but let's not let these gems we discover get lost again.

Preserve the knowledge for future historians.

[TEPaul]

"I am no historian, but I imagine that quickly determining what is "relevant" gca material might be a lot like an insurance guy determining what is an "unnecessary" medical procedure.  How do you know (in some cases) until that medical test is done and the result is negative?  Or, how will the USGA know something is worthless, since they will always have a chance that someone could come up with corroborating evidence.  Just a thought.

In some cases, it is easy.  When my father died, we donated all his stuff to the Museum of the Pacific War down in Fredericksburg, TX. I was going through an old box the other day and found some material that they had returned to my mother.  They had a nice cut off - any record of his service that dated past the end of the war got sent back as not being of interest."


Jeffrey:

What you are touching on above is of course always an issue with any museum or library or other entities of that type----eg what to collect and what not to collect.

I am just becoming familiar with this issue via the USGA Museum/library---and the new component to it---The Architecture Archive. In the world of the museum and library business this kind of thing is called "accession" and "deaccession"---eg what to collect and preserve and reposit and what not to, or to actually get rid of.

Of course numerous people will have numerous and differing opinions on this over-all subject for any museum/library but the point is someone has to make these decisions at some point. The USGA has a massive amount of material of all kinds and they cannot store it all at Far Hills or even be responsible for storing it all anywhere. They do rent space for this kind of thing in off-site places such as Iron Mountain.

If any of you want to try to get involved in these kinds of analyses of accession and deaccession decisions you should simply volunteer your time and services like the rest of us do. Nobody in this entire USGA effort makes any money out of it, that's for sure and that also seems to be an issue with some who might contribute or volunteer and who have been asked to but refused for whatever their reasons are.  

[Tim_Cronin]

Jeff Brauer wrote: "I was looking through the Medinah book last night when trying to fall asleep."

As someone once said, "Once you put down a Cronin book, you can't pick it up again."

  But hey, thanks for reading -- or at least looking at the pictures!

I find new "old" things out every time I tramp down to the library or stumble across an old photo or map. Sometimes contradictory, sometimes confirming, sometimes just confusing until more turns up. Working on a club book now, but I'm always looking at general Chicagoland golf history.

By the way, add Dan Moore as a Chicago golf researcher extraordinaire.

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