CPC and Ballybunion Old

[Mark_Rowlinson]

We often cite the fact that Cypress Point and Ballybunion Old both have back-to-back par 3s and par 5s. Elsewhere we would probably think these were less than ideal. Are they weaknesses at CPC or Ballybunion, or do they add to the fun?

[Kalen Braley]

We often cite the fact that Cypress Point and Ballybunion Old both have back-to-back par 3s and par 5s. Elsewhere we would probably think these were less than ideal. Are they weaknesses at CPC or Ballybunion, or do they add to the fun?

Mark,

I've never viewed back to back par 3s or par 5s as weaknesses for a couple of reasons.  First and foremost, if the land dictates that as its best use, then that is more than compelling enough of an argument to me to use what fits best.  Secondly, par 4s are found back to back several times thru most routings, so I'm not sure why there would be a precieved weakness attached to back to back par 3s or 5s.  For me its all about variety and certainly the back to back 3s and 5s at CPC are very differnet from each other.

[Jud_T]

Mark,

Can't speak to CPC, but the phrases weakness and Ballybunion Old should not be uttered in the same sentence....

[Tommy Williamsen]

The back to back par fives at Cypress feel right as well as the back to back par threes.  All four are wonderful holes and fit the land.

The par fives at Ballybunion are a different matter.  I think they are among the weaker holes on the course.  The land is not the most interesting either.  I'm glad they come early in the round.  It seems to me that before the clubhouse was moved they were not back to back.  Is that correct?

But the fact that they are back to back does not detract from the course than back to back par fours.

[Michael Latham]

have to confess to the vested interest of ballybunion membership and unrestrained joy every time I visit. The back to back par 3's invariably play with then against the wind or vice versa. One of my closest friends Didgie O'Connor, who has held every office at the Club, will regularly let his opponent pick the club with which Didgie must play the 14th. I have seen everyone used, from putter to driver.
The 5's offer a more uniform wind problem but very different approach play.
I have never stopped to ask myself if consecutive par 3's or 5's at Ballybunion were idiosyncratic, mostly the challenge of each was totally absorbing.

[Kevin Pallier]

The back to back par fives at Cypress feel right as well as the back to back par threes.  All four are wonderful holes and fit the land.

The par fives at Ballybunion are a different matter.  I think they are among the weaker holes on the course.  The land is not the most interesting either.  I'm glad they come early in the round.  It seems to me that before the clubhouse was moved they were not back to back.  Is that correct?

Tommy

I agree with your views above.

[Jordan Wall]

Hard to argue with 15 and 16 at Cypress.  Two of the best par-3's in the world.

The par-5's are unique and feature great bunkering and design - those holes fit in well too.

I can't comment on Ballybunion, but the back-to-back 3's and 5's are no weakness at Cypress.

[Ally Mcintosh]

The back to back par fives at Cypress feel right as well as the back to back par threes.  All four are wonderful holes and fit the land.

The par fives at Ballybunion are a different matter.  I think they are among the weaker holes on the course.  The land is not the most interesting either.  I'm glad they come early in the round.  It seems to me that before the clubhouse was moved they were not back to back.  Is that correct?

But the fact that they are back to back does not detract from the course than back to back par fours.

Tommy, before the clubhouse was moved, those back to back par-5s at Ballybunion were holes 17 and 18... So they were always back to back and worse, provided a rather anticlimactic finish... They bring their own challenges though... I love the old Tom Simpson bunker in the middle of the fairway at about 420 yards on hole 5... The fact they play in the same direction is a small problem though and it has to be said, they are not ideal...

The par-3s are a different matter... Both excellent holes and a perfect fit... Incidentally, Simpson suggested changing the 15th to a short par-4 playing to the right of the dune that backs the current green... It was a suggestion that he saw as non-vital, mainly because of budget and the quality of the current hole...

[Sean_A]

I think the percentage (something like 70%) of bunkers on Bally's first 5 holes tells the story with the land.  That said, flatter land is ALWAYS a welcome bit of diversity for myself and I don't think of #s 4 & 5 as in the least bit weak. 

As for #s 14 & 15, both are lovely and excellent holes.  These two holes essentially act as a link back to the sea and it is quite a clever routing element IMO.  I am not sure the sea could have been used as well if there weren't these back to back par 3s. 

Ciao

[DMoriarty]

Unfortunately, I cannot speak to Ballybunion, but I don't think there is a problem at CPC.    Each is so different than its pair that it is easy to forget that they come in succession.  The only time I have a problem with consecutive holes of the same par is when I feel like I am playing the same hole twice in a row.  Sometime consecutive holes feel too much alike even with different pars, but the consecutive pars at CPC don't suffer that fate.   CPC 16 may have more in common with the 17th than with the 15th, and while they are obviously very different golf holes I more closely associate CPC 4 and 5 than I do CPC 5 and 6.   It is a feel thing.

Frankly, I think that this complaint (consecutive par 3s or 5s) is the refuge of those who want to be critical but can't think of anything intelligent to say.  Are consecutive par 4s a problem?  Or does it depend on the similarity and feel of the holes?   Why should it be any different with par 3s and par 5s?  

It's just another example of the absurdity of the impact that the concept of par has on our conception of design.  

[Ally Mcintosh]

I think the percentage (something like 70%) of bunkers on Bally's first 5 holes tells the story with the land.  That said, flatter land is ALWAYS a welcome bit of diversity for myself and I don't think of #s 4 & 5 as in the least bit weak.  

As for #s 14 & 15, both are lovely and excellent holes.  These two holes essentially act as a link back to the sea and it is quite a clever routing element IMO.  I am not sure the sea could have been used as well if there weren't these back to back par 3s.  

Ciao

Sean, I'll give you the exact numbers on Ballybunion bunkers if you like?

In the 50's the course had a total of 47... 4 of these were on the fourth and 6 of them were on the 5th (25 in total on the first five)

The current course has a total of 62 bunkers... In my opinion, virtually all of the additions were not needed and were introduced somewhat arbitrarily by Tom Watson... There are now 9 bunkers on the fourth and 13 bunkers on the 5th... (37 in total on the first five)

The course has four bunkerless holes (6, 7, 9, 11)

Rgds,
Ally

[Sean_A]

I think the percentage (something like 70%) of bunkers on Bally's first 5 holes tells the story with the land.  That said, flatter land is ALWAYS a welcome bit of diversity for myself and I don't think of #s 4 & 5 as in the least bit weak.  

As for #s 14 & 15, both are lovely and excellent holes.  These two holes essentially act as a link back to the sea and it is quite a clever routing element IMO.  I am not sure the sea could have been used as well if there weren't these back to back par 3s.  

Ciao

Sean, I'll give you the exact numbers on Ballybunion bunkers if you like?

In the 50's the course had a total of 47... 4 of these were on the fourth and 6 of them were on the 5th (25 in total on the first five)

The current course has a total of 62 bunkers... In my opinion, virtually all of the additions were not needed and were introduced somewhat arbitrarily by Tom Watson... There are now 9 bunkers on the fourth and 13 bunkers on the 5th... (37 in total on the first five)

The course has four bunkerless holes (6, 7, 9, 11)

Rgds,
Ally

Ally

Jeepers, that only 60% of the total on the opening five holes!  It must have seemed more to me - tee hee.

Ciao