Question about Landscape Architecture School

[Jaeger Kovich]

As some of you may know, I am a student of GCA, trying everything I can think of to get my foot in the door with a designer. I graduated from Hobart College this past spring with a BA in Architectural Studies and a minor in Studio Art (anyone need some golf art!), and am now considering going back to school next year for my Masters in Landscape Architecture....

I have interned for an ASGCA member, where I designed a practice facility and learned countless design skills. I currently work at Quaker Ridge, where I mostly caddy, although I have also worked on the maintenance crew and recently was asked to redesign a practice area and 1st tee. At the age of 23 (today!) I have seen about 30 of these "top 100" golf courses around the world, and GCA is all I ever think about.

Ideally I would like to gain more work experience before going back to school (if necessary), especially in golf course construction, but with the state of the global economy this has been especially difficult right now and I have been more than willing to go anywhere in the world for a chance, but so far haven't had any luck.

So... My questions are:

If you had your choice of schools with landscape programs, which would you choose knowing that you want a career in GCA?

Are the any programs/grants/scholarships specifically for GCA that are worth checking into?

Is there another focus/major that you would recommend? Agronomy? Environmental? Even PGM/turfgrass programs? Engineering (ex. Raynor)?

Would you suggest going to the EIGCA education program as an American/ what are the differences between EIGCA and ASLA programs?

I have been thinking about going to one of those machine operator schools are learning how to run bulldozers/excavators on my own, not only to gain the skills, but also to show my desire to do the job. Is this a good idea? Are there any of these which are good for GCA?


... I know going to Landscape architecture school isn't exactly "necessary", many have become architects without it. I actually would prefer not to go back to school, but with the state of the industry I need to consider all options, so any help on the education process or other directions to consider would be greatly appreciated. Thanks, Jaeger.

[Tom_Doak]

Jaeger:

I just got back from two days of sitting in on classes in golf architecture, at Michigan State and at Ball State.  At BSU one of my former associates is helping teach the class while working on her Masters degree.  Maybe you should talk to her.

I never try to stop anyone from improving their education.  But, honestly, I don't know that the degree will get you any farther in a business that is contracting.  I would encourage you to keep trying to find work experience which will ultimately be of more value to you ... and if it doesn't work out, at least you haven't spent money on a major you can't use.

[Adam Russell]

Jaeger,

I just graduated from the top Landscape Architecture school in the U.S. with about the same experience level you have. I've been disappointed with how little my degree means right now. For the time you will have to put in to get a Masters, I agree with Tom Doak and would tell you to stick to the field work.

[Jud_T]

Jaeger,

Harvard baby...!  Seriously, their Landscape Arch program is the sh*t, you could set up an independent study course on GCA (think Tom Doak in St. Andrews), kill a couple of years while the economy sucks, then teach when there are still no jobs to be had...

[Jeff_Brauer]

Jaeger,

If you pursue that path, choose your schools carefully. Most Masters programs focus on some esoteric stuff rather than the nuts and bolts LA skills you would need for golf.  As Jud hints, Harvard grads tend to go on to be teachers, not practitioners.  So, make sure you can get in at least the basic grading and drainage classes.  Or, better yet, go to school only until they give you that class and then quit.  I am pretty sure most gca's would understand that when hiring......again.

[Ally Mcintosh]

Would you suggest going to the EIGCA education program as an American/ what are the differences between EIGCA and ASLA programs?

I have no idea what the ASLA program gives you... But I can thoroughly recommend the EIGCA program. It will give you a whole host of experiences, contacts and enjoyment whilst enabling you to remain in full time employment...

We had two Americans on the course which ran from 2007-2009, both of whom were already working for GCA firms. Currently one is with Rick Jacobsen and the other is with Golfplan...

[Adrian_Stiff]

I think get a job for a someone who is buiding courses (no one at the moment), if your good they will keep you on, but dont expect big wages. The best place to learn is in the field, not from some school that wants to tell you Harry Colt always polished his shoes on fridays. If you want to educate yourself learn how to grow and manage grass, understand how plants work, understand how irrigation works, best ways to drain....the roots stuff. Working at golf courses, learning how the stuff is maintained, understanding how things need to be built to be maintained within budgets. Golf course design is about whats good for turf as well, its not all about the perfect golf options, sometimes you cant bunker a certain place because it might be in a direct line with the main walk off.

[Ally Mcintosh]

Or get a job, do the EIGCA program and enjoy both methods at the same time...

I'll tell you one thing - by the time you are done with EIGCA, you'll have routed real courses on real sites, you'll have carried out detailed design on the holes you have routed, you'll have learnt the basics of drainage, irrigation, greens construction, contracts administration, grass types & maintenance practices... and you'll have had a whole lot of fun in the process and visited a whole ton of classic courses... meanwhile you'll be getting work experience by trying to get employed back at home...

[Philippe Binette]

Grab a shovel and a rake, go built some stuff

[Peter Zarlengo]

As someone who is currently in an undergraduate landscape architecture program and shares a similar passion for golf courses, I'd probably tend to steer you away from that path. I think Jeff is right in that most of what I've done in design studios the past couple of years would offer you little in the way of an education in golf design. For example, right now I am working on a park design/greenway, examining the world's water crisis, as well as drawing construction details for walls, ramps, steps, pavements.

I think what landscape architecture has offered me is as someone trying to also make a go of it in the golf design/construction field:

1) learning design process and site analysis
2) learning what is called, "design implementation" in school -- grading, stormwater, planting, materials and construction all of which have taught me some things, but mostly reinforce or contradict what I've seen in the field working.
3) learning computer programs and a few hand graphics

But I think I've learned far more from laying down sod, staking greens, digging drainage, finish shaping bunkers and greens, and hanging around an office than in the landscape architecture curriculum. And I think getting those opportunities has had more to do with the fact that I've been eager, lucky, and had previous experience than that I am in a landscape architecture program. If you're really set on getting back to school I'd probably tell you to find your way to a turf program as its a better "in" to the golf world, would take less time, and have a greater golf focus.

[Brett Hochstein]

Jaeger--

Check email

As much as I value my education, I would steer away from it as well, especially if you already have a bachelor's in any design field.  Practical experience is no doubt the best.  Right now though, it is just a matter of finding it.

[Philippe Binette]

remember that no great courses have ever been built from a plan... or without smart artistic people on site

[Jaeger Kovich]

Thanks for all the replies. I really appreciate all the insight on the subject. It seems like my initial thought that work experience should be the #1 goal was reinforced by you guys, and was honestly a little surprised by the responses from current/recent MLA grads, but thats why I asked.

I obviously have a lot still to consider, but one great thing about the admissions process to these schools, is most allow you to differ, and having to turn down an acceptance letter from Harvard for a job would be a welcome scenario. It also seems like applying to the EIGCA program is a good idea, it is something I have been looking into for a while, and apparently can offer more than just technical training, which I really like. Also with the economy and slow winter golf season I think I may go to machine operator school no matter what path I choose.

I currently am working on trying to nail down some potential golf construction leads, and have a few "plan B's" up my sleeve! I am pretty stubborn and if anything your responses have been encouraging to me. Thanks, and keep them coming!

-Jaeger

[Adrian_Stiff]

I think a good way into the business would be learning how to operate a D6 with a six way blade, ie a shaper.

[David_Tepper]

Jaeger -

At the risk of sounding like a wise guy (as opposed to a wise man ), you might make yourself more employable if you learned to read & speak Mandarin. My guess is a healthy portion of the golf courses worldwide built over the next 10-20 years will be built in China.

DT

[Jaeger Kovich]

David - After working on maintenance crews and hanging out in caddy yards my spanglish is already pretty good. Ordering the mandarin version of Rosetta Stone is on my short list of things to do! As Tom D has said before "One of my next shapers will someone who can speak mandarin"

[Ryan Farrow]

I got beat to the punch, LEARN MANDARIN!

Honestly, if your goal is to find a job working on new golf courses, one of the only places you will be able to do it is China. If you go back to school for anything, go for this. As others have, I'd also recommend steering clear of more education about golf course design or LA.