Wentworth - conservation status for golf courses?

[Jeffrey Prest]

My search suggests that this hasn't already been offered for debate, so I would refer you to an interesting piece by golf consultant Kevin Munt on possible ramifications of the Wentworth West Course re-jig. http://www.kmgcgolfconsultant.com/2009/11/listed-protection-for-golf-courses.html#more

Possibly the 'money quote':

"Should the architectural work, (and I use that word very loosely in most of the following cases) of such golf design luminaries as Colt, Vardon, Taylor & Braid be under the protection of some agency?"

[James Boon]

Jeffrey,

I asked a similar question regarding protected / listed status of golf courses a little while ago. Here is a link to the thread which also contains links to previous discussions on the topic...
http://golfclubatlas.com/forum/index.php/topic,40028.msg840642/topicseen/

As I mention in the thread above, I still feel that the R&A could instigate a group along the lines of English Heritage (that we have for listed buildings here in the UK) that could give protected status to and then monitor those listed courses.

Cheers,

James

[Dónal Ó Ceallaigh]

I recall some discussion about something similar in relation to Donald Ross designs?

I think courses should be protected, but the R&A aren't likely to spearhead this. Aren't they responsible for mucking up the Old Course?

Dónal.

[James Boon]

Donal,

You are probably right that the R&A wouldn't spear head this? But they are golfs governing body and I see from their website they have a committee for golf course management in relation to sustainability, so why not management in relation to heritage as well?

Cheers,

James

[Dónal Ó Ceallaigh]

Donal,

You are probably right that the R&A wouldn't spear head this? But they are golfs governing body and I see from their website they have a committee for golf course management in relation to sustainability, so why not management in relation to heritage as well?

Cheers,

James

James:

Many of the campaigns to save buildings were started by people at the grass roots level. The protests to protect Georgian buildings in Dublin in the 1970s were started by students, activists, and a future Irish president. It was only when they gathered momentum, that the establishment got involved. Unfortunately, I don't see golf course preservation generating any interest amongst the majority of golfers. Most golfers are not interested in golf architecture, so convincing them that preserving a Colt course that they don't even play, is going to be difficult. Most would ask: "Colt, who's he?"

You'd probably have to lobby MPs that play golf. Are there many? That would have been easy in the early 20C, with people like Balfour in high positions. Not such an easy task nowadays. Does Gordon Brown play golf? 
 
Dónal.

[Ally Mcintosh]

I agree with Donal...

Britain and Ireland are light years behind the USA in the general golfing public's awareness of golf architecture... For this reason, they are also a good deal behind in their will for 'restoration' projects... which in turn means they are a good way behind in a desire to protect what we've got...

[Adam Lawrence]

EIGCA has done some work with (I think) English Heritage in terms of considering golf courses as historic designed landscapes. Nothing may come of it, of course.

[Niall C]

I recall some discussion about something similar in relation to Donald Ross designs?

I think courses should be protected, but the R&A aren't likely to spearhead this. Aren't they responsible for mucking up the Old Course?

Dónal.

Donal

The then secretary of the R&A, Sir Michael Bonnallick (probably got his spelling wrong but who cares) actually had a tree planted on the old course for the Open to stop players hitting onto an adjacent fairway from the tee (can't recall the hole and don't know if the tree is still there).

Niall

[James Boon]

EIGCA has done some work with (I think) English Heritage in terms of considering golf courses as historic designed landscapes. Nothing may come of it, of course.

Adam,

Thanks, I've just found an abridged version of this on the interweb and am reading through it. Here it is for reference:
http://www.english-heritage.org.uk/upload/pdf/EIGCA_abridged_report.pdf?1258017070

A bit more digging and I've found that Gleneagles is listed by Historic Scotland:
http://www.historic-scotland.gov.uk/index/heritage/gardens/gardenssearchmoreinfo.htm?s=gleneagles&r=&bool=1&PageID=2423&more_info=Importance
http://www.historic-scotland.gov.uk/index/heritage/gardens/gardenssearchsummary.htm?s=gleneagles&r=&bool=1&PageID=2423

The golf course itself certainly carries some weight in this, but its also the overall setting of the grounds and the hotel.

Cheers,

James

[Paul_Turner]

I looked for the piece referenced by Kevin Munt but couldn't really find anything about listed status for golf courses:

http://www.bigga.org.uk/magazine/2844/same-name-different-course.html

You can tell from the article that Els really hasn't had much to do with this.  It's mostly the owner Richard Caring and Greg Letsche that came up with these dumb ideas for the course.  You can also tell that the greenkeeper Chris Kennedy had more affection for the original course but even he seems to have thrown in the towel with this bs:

Re the fine 2nd

I’d always thought the hole was amazing the way it was, but Greg felt that on a short par-3, where players were only hitting an 8 or 9-iron, you should always see the ball finish. However, because the front of the green was higher than the back that didn’t happen and if there was a hole-in-one you’d have to rely on the crowd telling you or wait until you’d got to the green to find out. You’ve got to agree with the guy,” said Chris, as we surveyed the entire new green from the tee.
 

Chris is aware that there will be golfing traditionalists who will be unhappy that the original Harry Colt-design has been so radically changed, but having been involved in the project and having spoken with various people including, Greg Letsche, Ernie’s Head of Design, he has began to appreciate the counter argument.

“Wentworth is regarded as a Harry Colt masterpiece but the feeling is that if Harry had come along today he’d be thinking along the same lines as the new design. When he was building golf courses they were done with a horse and cart and he didn’t have the opportunity to move earth and use the sophisticated machinery that is around today,” said Chris.

[Mark Pearce]

Paul,

He probably values his job.