[Tom_Doak]

Ray R.:  It's actually my crew doing the restoration work at Oyster Harbors this fall.  Bruce Hepner has been running the job and most of the other associates have had a turn at doing the shaping.

[PThomas]

is that Oyster Harbor in MA?

[Robert Mercer Deruntz]

Having perused the Stephen Kay website, I discovered that I had played six less than inspiring to as bad as design gets courses.  At least he no longer lists Wind Watch or work at Smithtown Landing and Cherry Valley.  The problem I have with Stephen Kay is that he is getting a free pass from many gca's for a large body of very poor work while Rees and Fazio seem to be getting slaughtered for anything that they touch. 
What finally pushed my thoughts over the edge was the horrific work done at Leewood after having viewed Sunningdale's emergence from the Kay crap courtesy of DeVries.
Ironically, Kay shows his before and after work on Sunningdale in the Services section of his webpage.  For a better perspective, check out this sectioon and compare to this work by DeVries.



And then there is this look that was not addressed at Leewood--this coulod be an awesome short hole--I opine that this is currently a mess from an architecture perspective



I wish that better pictures were taken, but was competing in the  Bambino Invitational.

[Matt_Ward]

Robert:

Hold on amigo -- where does it say that Kay is getting a pass ?

I agreed with you on the Wind Watch sirtuation and have mentioned that while I think Blue Heron Pines / West opened the door for better daily fee options in and around the immediate AC area it's not by any means up to the level of his better work -- see the likes of The Links at Unionvale, Links of ND, Scotland Run and even McCullough's Links -- all of the just mentioned courses you have not played. Let me also point out that Kay did a fine job (with Ron Whitten's involvement) at The Architect's Club in Lopatcong Twsp, NJ. Not all of the holes there are top tier but there's plenty that works quite well and it's one of NJ's best public courses in my mind.

Your comment on The Hamlet is also on target -- very much forced onto the site and often awkward in what it attempts to provide.

Robert, the issue boils down to having a better understanding of a person's total contributiion to design. You have only had the opportunity play a certain few -- so be it. But you don't hesitate to throw Kay completely under the bus and make the deep left field propostion that no less than 1,000 architects would be ahead of him.

One other point that you have completely failed to realize - which I posted previously -- there are architects who should not be doing restoration work because clearly they have made the point in pushing forward various items that don't fit - Ken Dye is another that comes to mind with his efforts at other Westchester layouts. You have not played or seen Forsgate in central NJ -- Kay did assist there but his fingerprints were more complimentary than the posted pics you provided on the NY courses he has been involved with. The restoration of the Biaritz style green at the 17th hole there is indeed a major positive force.

Limited sampling sizes often cause people on GCA to make blanket assertions --Robert you say "large body of work" but let's be clear just how many courses you have played from Kay's hand and are you not simply touting his less than convincing attenpts on the restoration side of things?  Often times such asserations are unfairly broadened to mean that the person in question has limitied talent for the job in question. I don't like a few Kay courses -- see Harbor Pines as another example -- but overall his work on the original design side has been a positive and given people of moderate means an opportunity to sample his take on what golf architecture should be.

Last thing -- I have also tried to be balanced in what Rees Jones and TF do. Let me point out that very few people on this site or elsewhere ever mention the superb qualities of a Jones design just outside of Albany -- Olde Kinderhook. It's a first rate effort on a grand piece of property but because it's not on Long Island or the immediate NYC suburbs it essentially lives in the shadows.

Tom Fazio also deserves credit for the public design he created at Oyster Bay in Woodbury, NY. No doubt it's very tight to the acreage it had -- but there's plenty there that works very well for those folks who won't ever be flocking to NGLA or Shinny for a game.

Paul Thomas:

Yes, it's Oyster Harbors in Osterville, MA.

[Robert Mercer Deruntz]

And for Kay's hearalded work at Forsgate, what quality architect who cites this work as a restoration would allow this crap to still exist without striking his name from the record?

This is a green waiting to be expanded back to its original size


These trees should be a deal breaker as far as coming down


Not sure what to make of this--bunker located way in rough, what's going on in bunker, nice job of leaving the pines alone



And a fairway that marginalizes the bunkers--this fairway should have been widened so the the green entrance is receptive to a runup shot and a miscue actually finds the bunkers

[Robert Mercer Deruntz]

And this is how a Banks course desrves to be restored

[John Foley]

Robert,

On a play at a very very cool Ross course here in upstate NY my host talked aboput the great work the architect was doing restoring Ross' features over time. He pointed out a lot of places where things (green captures / bunker renovations / mowing patterns expanding.

His last comment was - It would be grea tif we had all the funds to do this all at once, but it will take a long long time to complete.

[Jay Flemma]

Rob, I have to agree with everyone else.  The members of Forsgate are thrilled with the changes.  I posted two threads on the little touch ups he did with pics...including his faithful restoraration of the Biarritz.  The pics you took appear tp be trees that are not in play.  the pics appear to be looking across holes, not on them.  the trees your complaining about dont seem to encroach the fairways.

I'll post more when I have time.

[Rick Sides]

Just played Medford Lakes Country Club in NJ and Stephan did some work there and the members are very happy.

[Robert Mercer Deruntz]

There really are noo ulterior motives behind this post--THERE MUST BE OVER 1000 BETTER ARCHITECTS THAT STEPHEN KAY!  I have been working and playing at courses over the past 20 years where another architect could have produced a better result.  His work at Cherry Valley was a golden opportunity for a much needed restoration that was more than lost.  There have been slow inhouse improvements over the years, but the other two Garden City clubs got it right by using excellent architects.  As for the current post, it upsets me to think that some course might end up using him when there are better architects to deliver either a restoration or renovation.
   It is true that he restored the front portion of the Biarritz at Forsgate along with some other work, but the trees "not in play" are a ruination of the sight line for punchbowl--another green that is not a punchbowl because it needs to be expanded back to original size.  Jay you must not be very observant when you play because these trees jump right out at you screaming--get these things out.
Trees blocking bunker shots should be a priority job in a restoration.


The trees are located aboout 330 yards out and are located on the right portion of the picture.  I should have shot the pictures differently to show how their framing could minimalize the use  of the cnter bunker wich is loocated about 320 yards from the tee.

As for members being happy, that is often great, but they might not know what better really equals.

[Chris_Blakely]

Robert,

All I can say is THANK YOU for nameing several of the Emmet courses that you have that he worked on.  I too felt the end result was less than stellar.

Chris

[Matt_Ward]

Architects are like baseball players -- they will hit certain pitches for home runs -- others they may even strike out. I've said this from the beginning of this body slam thread -- no doubt Stephen Kay has not home runs from the various courses -- and I emphasize I have played a very good representative sampling of his original work and those layouts which he was called in to upgrade, restore, call it what one may.

I never said the man is golden across the board. I even said some of his original works were far less than what he is capable in delivering.

However ...

What we have here is an attempt to highlight certain narrow listing of courses - without ever mentioning the fact that other more stellar layouts have been carefully omitted either because the poster has not played them or is hellbent on delivering a point of view that fails to admit that other work has been accepted in a far more positive light. Clearly Kay has talent -- in my mind, and if one were to simply look at ONLY specific courses that have been inserted to make a point irrespective of what the total record demonstrates.

Let's talk about Forsgate -- the 5th hole does have trees there -- however, Kay's charge for the course was a fairly limited one. The trees in question are not in play for 95%+ of those who play the hole. They are far beyond the capabilty of people coming remotely close to them. Highlighting them as an issue is really hellbent on a crusade that boggles my mind.

Let me also point out that Kay recommended widening of a number of fairways at Forsgate and also expanded a number of the greens there. His work at #17 is without doubt in my mind first rate and has only added to the collective greatness of the four par-3's at the layout there.

Chris Schiavone, the head man at Forsgate, understand what courses should be about and his desire to improve Forsgate is well none to those people who have seen the course and what it has faced over the last 30+ years. Forsgate has clearly improved itself and frankly it's important to have a total context on how things were and how things have been improved.

Kelly and John's comments are well said. There are original courses that Kay has done that are quite good -- I have mentioned a few of them -- Scotland Run, Links of ND and The Links at Unionvale, are three that come to mind quickly. Like I said no architect hits home runs all the time -- some do strike out and I think it's high time a far more serious, and clearly more balanced, context be provided.

I've asked if the more noted courses have been played. Have not heard an answer therefore I must conclude they have not been. Some architects no doubt are not suited for the upgrade / restoration elements tied to such projects -- many architects have faced this shortcoming including the likes of Tom Fazio and Rees Jones, to name just two. I guess they would not be among the top 1,000 architects either.

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