Is 18th green at Liberty National tricked up or did El Tigre ...

[Voytek Wilczak]

just miss a 7 foot putt and is now complaining?

Of all the greens at LN the 18-th looks the least undulating. Honestly, it looked flattish to me from the stands (all things at LN considered).

So if the green is not that severe, how can it be tricked up?

Are Cupp and Kite some magicians that can make a non-severe green look deceiving?

if so, more power to them, dont'ya think?

As a designer, wouldn't you want to trick the player?

If not why is everybody ga-ga about false fronts, optical architectural tricks, etc?

Or are greens off-limits to optical trickery?

[Kalen Braley]

Can't it just be the year of the choking Tiger?

Thats two in a row now....do we have enough for a trend yet? 

P.S.  He also missed what looked to be a 2.5-3 footer earlier in the round on Sunday as well.

[Mark Pearce]

I didn't see the putt.  Which side of the hole did he miss on?

[Kalen Braley]

I didn't see the putt.  Which side of the hole did he miss on?

I think it was the high side...same putt stricker had, almost identical.

[Richard Choi]

No he missed it low. It wasn't really that close either.

[Jim_Kennedy]

Tiger threw these last couple of tourneys, it's part of his PRP (personality rehab plan).

I know this because I saw him actually smiling when one of his shots took an incredibly bad bounce, he didn't swear or throw a club.

As soon as everyone forgives and forgets his teenaged pouty behavior he will once again be merciless in his trouncings.

[Phil McDade]

Previously discussed here; probably not the course or green

http://golfclubatlas.com/forum/index.php/topic,41040.0/

[Patrick_Mucci]

The 18th green at Liberty National is NOT tricked up.

[Joe Hancock]

Just so I can have half a chance at following this thread, does tricked up= unconventional? Or does tricked up= internal contours?

What do you mean?

Joe

[JSlonis]

Tiger said he and Stevie read the putt as inside the right edge.  He missed it on the low side and said in all his interviews that they misread the putt by at least a cup. 

There aren't that many 7 footers that are really all that tricky.  Sure some break quite a bit, but it just sounds like a bad read on Tiger's part. It's golf...it happens

[Philippe Binette]

He pulled it - proof of that he hit it too hard

[Voytek Wilczak]

Just so I can have half a chance at following this thread, does tricked up= unconventional? Or does tricked up= internal contours?

What do you mean?

Joe

Joe:

To me a tricked up green would have to be very severe, and would also have internal contours that cause double or maybe even triple breaks.

A tricked-up green would be exaggerated in those aspects.

[Charlie Goerges]

I always thought "tricked-up" meant when green speeds were too fast for the contours. How can you trick something up before the fact? It's not a trick if you didn't do anything tricky!

[Rob Rigg]

Cupp can build some interesting green that appear fairly flat and uninteresting.

The ladies were having a ton of trouble on the 7th green at Ghost Creek, amongst others.

Cupp often does a good job of "blending slopes" - so the pinnable positions are at confusing junctions of various angles that make it difficult to determine which one is dominant.

I would imagine that over time the players would get used to the slopes, or lack of, at LN with repeat plays, just like at Ghost Creek for the ladies, but first time through the Cupp greens can be sneaky.

[Jim Nugent]

Tiger said he and Stevie read the putt as inside the right edge.  He missed it on the low side and said in all his interviews that they misread the putt by at least a cup. 

There aren't that many 7 footers that are really all that tricky.  Sure some break quite a bit, but it just sounds like a bad read on Tiger's part. It's golf...it happens

Didn't Stricker also miss on the left, from pretty much the same angle? 

[Kalen Braley]

I had plenty of double breakers at a certain course in Montana I recently visited.  Does this mean those greens were tricked up too?

I must admit, I'm still struggling on what exactly constitutes the difference between a fun undulating green and one that is goofy/gimmicky!

[Brent Hutto]

If the most reasonable way to deal with certain putts is to chip or wedge them instead of putting and by not doing so you are wasting a stroke...that's a tricked-up green.

If, given the usual speed of the putting surface and benign weather conditions, there are interior pin positions (i.e. not near an edge) from which every ball rolls off the green...that's goofy golf.

If there are "unmakable" putts from one segment of a green to another or if a 3-putt or worse is virtually guaranteed when your approach shot ends up in an unfavorable postion...that's a fun, undulating green.

If anything other than a tap-in two-putt means you made a poor stroke or a terrible read...that's a boring, flat green.

[Adam_F_Collins]

For me, a 'tricked up' situation is a lot like a 'gravity hill' or 'magnetic hill'

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gravity_hill

It's a location where it is very difficult or even unlikely that you will read slope or break in the right way on the first few go arounds - it's just too hard to accept the way it breaks. I remember seeing a situation once in a scramble where we were lying around four from the hole, and no one could hit it. Sure, there are 'tricked up' situations where a pin is just on a slope which won't allow the ball to stop - but these are uncommon outside of bush league tournaments.

But I wonder about positions on tour where positions are very unlikely to read correctly without previous experience. Sure, everyone is playing the same course, but you have to admit - there ARE places on courses and we've all played them - where there's just no way you can see things coming unless you've played them before. "You just can't believe how much that putt breaks", etc.

I don't really care, myself. I mean, these situations are just as much a part of the game as a bad bounce. But to me, they are akin to areas of really uneven ground in the fairway in that they really exaggerate the aspect of luck in the game.

[Patrick_Mucci]

Cupp can build some interesting green that appear fairly flat and uninteresting.

The ladies were having a ton of trouble on the 7th green at Ghost Creek, amongst others.

Cupp often does a good job of "blending slopes" - so the pinnable positions are at confusing junctions of various angles that make it difficult to determine which one is dominant.

Doesn't the USGA and PGA avoid cupping in locations where there's an appreciable change in slope within 3 feet of the hole ?

I would imagine that over time the players would get used to the slopes, or lack of, at LN with repeat plays, just like at Ghost Creek for the ladies, but first time through the Cupp greens can be sneaky.

Rob,

In the immortal words of John Patrick McEnroe, Jr, "You can't be serious"

"Cupp greens can be sneaky."

Tell us how a putt of 6' 10" can be sneaky ?

Tell us how a putt of 6' 10" on the 18th green at Liberty National can be sneaky ?

I have impaired vision, but, it's doubtful that I'll misread a 6' 10" inch put by 4.25 inches or more.

Especially if we accept the cupping guideline that there shall be no appreciable change in slope within three (3) feet of the hole.

Are you in any way associated or friendly with Cupp, his organization, his family or friends ?

[Patrick_Mucci]

A theory:

Lasik surgery changes the corneal contour/s

Some physicians have indicated that the shape of the cornea naturally changes as a person ages.

If someone had Lasik surgery when they were younger, could it be that the aging process has affected their previously corrected vision ?

[Rob Rigg]

Pat,

I do have the "home bias" on my side since a Cupp is my "home course", although I am in no way related to Mr Cupp or his organization.

I realize that Cupp bashing is the current favorite thing to do on many websites and blogs but based on how "professionals" performed on the greens at Ghost Creek over the past w/e I would have to say that there is more to them than many would suggest.

Again, at the Safeway Classic, I saw the ladies continually misreading putts on the greens from 5+ feet away. I am not suggesting that anyone would miss a 7 foot but by 4+ inches, I am merely suggesting that Cupp greens can be sneaky and difficult to read due to subtle contours around the hole that cause a ball to move more or less than you would suspect depending on the situation.

Suzann Petterson missed a 6 footer to win, Redman missed a 3 footer to make the second hole of the playoff, I saw the ladies missing numerous short distance putts over three days at the 7th green which can be very challenging to putt.

I have never played LN so I have no idea what the deal is at 18, but if the greens there are like the ones at Ghost then they can certainly be sneaky due to subtlety.

I know I have a much easier time reading and dropping putts while playing other parkland courses where greens tend to slope in one direction and the reads into pinnable areas tend to have less subtle movement and/or noise that creates confusion.

[Patrick_Mucci]

Rob Rigg,

I think Tiger is such a spectacular putter that when he misses a putt some place the blame on the green.

He missed a 6' 10" putt.

It happens.

Doug Saunders missed a 3 footer and other TOP PGA PROS have missed them as well.

There's no need to blame the green, especially when you consider Tiger's putting performance at ANGC over the years.

[PThomas]

He pulled it - proof of that he hit it too hard

it was a crappy putt, hit way too hard

[Rob Rigg]

Pat,

I would rarely if ever "blame" any green for a player missing a putt - no matter who it is.

If you miss it, then you missed it, the green didn't make you miss - it is there to be read by all.

We all make bad putts - sometimes they are misreads and sometimes they are bad strokes - it is either one or the other.

I was merely commenting that there is some interest to the Cupp greens that I have played that can cause even pros to mis-read them.

[Jim Nugent]

If the most reasonable way to deal with certain putts is to chip or wedge them instead of putting and by not doing so you are wasting a stroke...that's a tricked-up green.

This reminds me of what one GCA poster (can't recall who) says about the 16th green at Pasatiempo.  If his ball is on the upper tier, and the pin in the middle, he thinks the best play is to putt the ball off the green, keeping it on the middle tier, and then chip from there.