Shawnee--Summer 2008

[Ronald Montesano]

http://s46.photobucket.com/albums/f140/buffalogolfer/Shawnee-Summer%202008/?action=view&current=1a2c73b4.pbw

Pictures from Shawnee in Pennsylvania from last Summer.  Be interesting to see what Tom Doak does with the property.

[RJ_Daley]

Can Tom D., verify who on his team will be running that remodel-restore.  The photo line-up reminds me a little of the "North Shore CC" in Menasha WI, where Bruce Hepner ran the remodel, using mostly existing golf course maintenance crew and his own backhoe and finish talents. 

It looks to me by the photos that there is much contour lost on the greens, and bunkers are long time reshaped and shallow from what one might think of as a Tilly presentation and style.  While I have no way of actually knowing how much less of Tilly has evolved, one would have to think nearly all of the dramatic features are lost. 

A detreeing program, and a greens area recovery of lost edges, and a lower surrounds cut, as was done at North Shore, along with Hepner's interpretation of new bunkering, might be a world beater at Shawnee, it seems to me.

Does anyone know if Shawnee members specifically reviewed some of Rennaisance's remodel--restore project like Valley Club, and North Shore, before picking them for this job?

[Tom_Doak]

Ronald:  

If you want to know what I will be trying to do with the property, just look at the old photos as hard as you can.

RJ:

I cannot verify who will be running the job for me because it depends entirely on when (and if) we start.  We thought we would be on site already, but have yet to receive the go-ahead.  Brian Slawnik will likely run the job if it starts this fall.

And, to answer your other question, no, Mr. Kirkwood the owner has not seen any of our other remodeling work, as far as I know, although we did do some work for him on the practice facilities a few years back, and I can't remember if he went to see some of our other work back then.

[Matt_Ward]

Glad to hear that Team Doak is involved / re: Shawnee because although there's been an effort to improve things previously the overall facility is, in my mind, tired and in need of some rejuvenation.

The setting is clearly a plus but I often wonder when the next major storm hits how the facility can cope -- if it can cope.

There's potential at Shawnee but I have heard previous stories before over the years and seen little to really light my fire. Best of luck to Team Doak when things get started.

[Joe Bausch]

I was just up at Shawnee on Saturday and I'm cautiously optimistic about what I hope will get done there.  I just wish I owned a tree company and personally could thin the place.    Not to mention the amount of $$$ that could be made. 

TomD:  there are, I think, 3 lakes/ponds/retention areas on the course now.  How, if at all, will those impact your work?  From what I can tell, they could be 'in play' for some of the original Tilly holes.

Although I only played the white and blue nines, I have some pretty good photos in my possession.  I also played the Approach Course and snapped a few photos of it too.  If there is sufficient interest, I'll do a photo tour.

[Steve_ Shaffer]

The 3 nines at Shawnee are very tired indeed. Some interesting holes but very little of Tillinghast's original stuff remains. Doak's short course looks more Tillinghast like.

[Tom_Doak]

Joe B:

Save the photo tour for a "before and after".

Yes, there are three ponds they dug when they expanded to 27 holes.  One or two of them are needed for the irrigation reservoir, which might preclude the restoration of the original 9th hole, whose landing area is now cramped by the pump station.  [It would cost another $250K to restore that hole accurately, so we might move the fairway instead.]  The other ponds will be filled in or modified so that the original holes can be restored accurately.

[Joe Bausch]

Tom, it appears that brush and trees are already in the process of being cleared to bring back one lost hole.  I think it involves a green complex no longer in play, near where a garden is located.  Is what I saw correct, and if so, which original hole is this?  It looks to have real potential!

[Tom_Doak]

Joe:  Yes, they've cut some trees already.  The hole you saw is the original 13th, a medium-length par-4 that plays to a green site along the Binniekill creek.  That's the only one we've found where there is little evidence of the original green site ... they stole some of the original green material for fill after the hole was changed.  The 14th and 15th played east and west through the present Red nine, and then the 16th through 18th are the last three holes of the Red nine, although the 17th lost its back tee when they built a bunch of condos.

[Joe Bausch]

I'm a bit surprised that Shawnee did not appear to change much between the 1938 PGA Championship and 1959.  It was still 18 holes at that point.  Here are the Penn Pilot aerials:

1938:



1959:



So when did Mr. Diddel do his work there?

[Tom_Doak]

Joe:

The renovation and expansion was done by Bill Diddel in 1963.  (Not sure if that's when the work was done or when it opened.)

However, there has been more work done by 1959 than I knew of.  They have already added a green across the river for the short 2nd hole ... originally you went across the bridge after #1 and played back up the tributary for #2.  They've also turned the hole after that one into a sharp dogleg right, instead of the original straightaway.  And they've built a new green for #10 to the left of the original ... we found the older green when we were out there, but I wasn't sure when the work had been done.

I would guess this late 1950's work was Diddel, too, but I am not sure.  Whitten's bio of him has all the work being done in '63.

[D_Malley]

can someone transpose the hole #'s on either of the pics above?

[Tom_Doak]

D - I can't put labels on, but I can describe the routing to you as follows.  I'll use "up" on the photos for North, even though I am pretty sure that's not actually North.

#1  par 4, starts at hotel (top left of photo), plays SE along tributary (Binniekill) with pitch over small stream
#2  par 5 from tee across creek (original routing) NW along other side of Binniekill from #1
#3  par 4 straight along edge of Delaware River
#4  par 4 dogleg left, playing into interior of property (E on photo -- large tree near tee and another near green)
#5  par 3 very short, from tee behind #4 green NNE to adjacent green
#6  par 4 plays back to W to a green right behind #3 green along bank of river
#7  par 5 along Delaware River
#8  par 4 dogleg left into the interior and then back to green by River
#9  par 4 short hole playing across the island from NNW to SSE

#10 par 5 playing W to green just above #7 fairway
#11 par 4 playing E to green near Binniekill (below #10 on photo)
#12 par 3 playing W over bunkers to punchbowl green
#13 par 4 playing SW to green on Binniekill (cross bunkers about 50 yards short of green)
#14 par 4 playing WNW
#15 par 4 playing SE
#16 par 3 across Binniekill Creek
#17 par 4 with original tee hitting over #16 green playing SW to green near property entrance
#18 par 3 230 yards to green just E of hotel (S of #1 fairway)

[Jason McNamara]

The photos are taken from the north, i.e. for a more standard view you'd want to rotate the pics 180*.  The once (and future?) bare end of the island is the SW corner.

[Joe Bausch]

Perhaps this will help some:

[D_Malley]

Tom/Joe
That makes it very clear
thank you for your descriptions and routings

What yardage did the course play at for the last pro event held there?