White Bear Yacht Club - White Bear Lake, MN

[TEPaul]

"The plan is in the Ross biography and Ross's name is not on it."



Tom MacWood:

That's because that plan in the book (a copy of the two 1915 originals hanging in the clubhouse (one found in Australia and one found in an attic in Minn.)) wasn't done by a golf course architect; it is a copy of a 1915 land subdivision plan and golf course plan ("not yet completed as of Aug 1, 1915") done by a landscape designer in the teens. His name, Charles H. Ramsdell, is on the plan. The copy of the original apparently 1915 subdivision and golf plan we see in the Ross biography could not have been made before 1995.

[Tom MacWood]

Here is the map from Brad's book. The very very fine print goes as follows:

"The Map by Mark C. Mammel, MD, Historian WBYC

The maps shows the golf course of the White Bear Yacht Club in 1915, the year the course transformed from 9 holes to an 18 hole layout. No one knew of its existence for quite a long time. In the last few years two originals have surfaced. The first turned up in Australia, at a garage sale. It was probably brought there by Yacht Club member Dick Driebe, who started 3M's Australian branch in 1954. In returned to the States in 1973 with another 3Mer who then gave to Dr. Tom Nichols, a Yacht club member. The second copy never left Dellwood. Three summers ago Mrs. Peter Flolliott, one of the club's long time members and an outstanding player as a young woman, , found another copy of the map in the attic. I suspect it was put there by her father, a prominent St. Paul physician and member of the club. Knowing my interest in the club's history she gave it to me. The reproduction was made from Dr. Nichol's map, Mrs. Flolliott's copy is displayed at the Yacht club.

The actual map is 30' x 55', and drawn to be viewed vertically. The ink is blue like a blueprint. Along the left side in large fancy letters is the legend 'Map of the Golf Links of the White Bear Yacht Club' then in smaller letters below 'in sections 7 and 18, T. 30 N R 21 W. Washington County, Minnesota. T. Milton Fowble, St. Paul MN March 1915.' At the top of the map reads 'Plan of Landscape Development and Subdivision of Residence Sites by Charles H. Ramsdell Landscape Designer, form the original study.' It is a formal contour map with 100 foot grid and elevations marled at each corner of the grids. Contour lines show the hills and valley's of the terrain. It shows are 18 holes, with the tees and greens, almost as clearly as where they are today. Notable changes include the 8th green, which was rebuilt in 1971, then again in 1995, the 10th hole, which originally could be played as a 451 yard dogleg right from a tee by the current cart barn or as a 343 yard from near the current tee, and the 13th green, which was originally the 'punch bowl' hollow to the left of the current site.

the evidence we have points to Donald Ross as the designer of the course. As the maps shows member over the decades have had the good sense to to make only a few changes in the course layout. In spite of dramatic advancement in maintenance technology, club with hit harder and balls the travel father, the course is still a good test of the player's skill (and patience)."

[Tom MacWood]

Jeff
I believe much of the original research tracking down Ross's movements was done by gentleman with the Ross Society who passed away a few years ago. Unfortunately his name escapes me. If I remember correctly he had a good idea which courses Ross visited and which ones he hadn't. I'm not sure of Brad used any of his research or not. In the back of Brad's book is listing of his courses and he lists which courses he had confirmed Ross was on site. White Bear YC is listed as not confirmed.

[Jeff_Brauer]

TMac,

Thanks for posting that. I recall them telling me that Australia story when I was viewing it in the pro shop. 

BTW, I believe the 18th was rebuilt by Don Herfort at some point and is the least in character green out there, which is not mentioned on that plan.  That map shows no pro shop and I recall them telling me that it was added for convenience later, necessitating perhaps the move of the 18th and I think a repositioning of the tenth tee, too.  Oddly, that map seems to show an alternate 10th tee location from the start which avoided the blind tee shot over the hill.  My memory again is that the tee currently sits on top of the hill.  I think they told me that at one point, they considered getting rid of the blind tee shot on 18 as well, but with no place to move the hole, cutting the hill was simply too much and they decided to "live with it" as it was.

A question for TD I always had - this map doesn't show any fw bunkers on 12, but you added a string of them on the right. I trust those showed on the 1930 aerial you were using?  Also, having seen versions of the sixth hole at WBYC (as close as Northland in Duluth, but also elsewhere) was this Ross's version of CBM's short hole?

I will follow Tom Doak's lead and say that since I don't know who designed WBYC I won't post endlessly on the subject.  I can easily speculate that Watson may have worked with the land planner on the routing with Ross brought in to do the final design, but I don't know how it evolved.  As we have seen, many of these early courses have a more complicated history, although we can all find more modern courses routed by a local gca and land planner and then built by a big name, too. (Don't ask me how I know that)

I will say that I photographed that map, and took it on a tour with me.  Using that, I believed that the second fw had some grading to level out the slopes and I always felt the contouring in that fw looked suspiciously like some other Ross contouring I had seen, notably at Beverly CC in Chicago.  Please understand that this is only me speculating and assessing based on my own two eyes!

White Bear is the epitome of a quirky gem that for some unkown reason flies under the radar.

[Tom MacWood]

Didn't George O'Neil design Beverly and Ross later tweaked it?

[Jay Flemma]

It sure looks like a lot of ross I've seen...

[Jeff_Brauer]

Tom,

I think you are right about that. Ross did a lot of remodeling of earlier designs in the teens.  Northland was a redo and possible expansion as well.

[Phil McDade]

Didn't George O'Neil design Beverly and Ross later tweaked it?

Depends on your definition of "design" and "tweak." O'Neil, with the help of some early club members, did the initial routing. Holes 10-16, along with the 1st hole and what is now #8, essentially follow his routing (Beverly sits on two large, rectangular pieces of land, with the front nine on the northern parcel, and the back nine on the southern parcel -- Chicago's 87th Street divides the course in half). Ross came in about a decade later and substantially changed much of the course -- the club by then had bought additional land, so Ross had much more room to work with, esp. on the front nine. He also took advantage of a major ridge line on the front nine to site some tees and greens that O'Neil, partly owing to land constraints, did not. Ross also reconfigured the 11th hole green site, which then changed the par 3 12th green, moving it back, which also led to moving the 13th tee and his creation of a wonderful blind tee shot there. The back nine closers -- the long par 3 17th and and long par 5 18th -- are Ross originals, also brought about because of the addition of land. Ross also redid most if not all of the greens, most of them pushed up from their surrounds, and substantially changed the bunkering -- Beverly club members wanted to toughen the course, to make it comparable to some of its high-profile Chicago brethren at the time, and in particular Beverly was viewed as having less-than-demanding bunkering.

[Jeff_Brauer]

Phil,

In Tom MacWood's world, that is still a George O'Neill design, because he likes to think that nothing in gca is ever as it seems.  Don't you know Beverly just has to have its own history wrong?  Okay, just kidding around.

More seriously, I know Northland was perhaps a Ross remodel, but they got a lot of new land up the hill and gave up some lake front land.  It seems a lot of Ross redo's were almost or completely new courses over old ones in the same general location.  I gather that is because the early versions were put in play quickly but by the teens, people seemed to know better and want more.  In today's parlance, they would be called "blow ups" and at least in ASGCA which Ross founded, would be considered good enough to qualify for membership.

Just MHO.  I am sure I will be told that I just don't understand that era.......okay, I will stop with the shots.

[Tom MacWood]

Didn't George O'Neil design Beverly and Ross later tweaked it?

Depends on your definition of "design" and "tweak." O'Neil, with the help of some early club members, did the initial routing. Holes 10-16, along with the 1st hole and what is now #8, essentially follow his routing (Beverly sits on two large, rectangular pieces of land, with the front nine on the northern parcel, and the back nine on the southern parcel -- Chicago's 87th Street divides the course in half). Ross came in about a decade later and substantially changed much of the course -- the club by then had bought additional land, so Ross had much more room to work with, esp. on the front nine. He also took advantage of a major ridge line on the front nine to site some tees and greens that O'Neil, partly owing to land constraints, did not. Ross also reconfigured the 11th hole green site, which then changed the par 3 12th green, moving it back, which also led to moving the 13th tee and his creation of a wonderful blind tee shot there. The back nine closers -- the long par 3 17th and and long par 5 18th -- are Ross originals, also brought about because of the addition of land. Ross also redid most if not all of the greens, most of them pushed up from their surrounds, and substantially changed the bunkering -- Beverly club members wanted to toughen the course, to make it comparable to some of its high-profile Chicago brethren at the time, and in particular Beverly was viewed as having less-than-demanding bunkering.

Phil
You're right, Ross did more than just tweak Beverly. From my analysis O'Neil (actually I think it was a collaboration O'Neil & Bendelow) is responsible for 1, 8, 10, part of 11, 12th green location, 13, 14, 15, 16, and the 18th green appears to be O'Neil's 17th green.

[J_ Crisham]

Didn't George O'Neil design Beverly and Ross later tweaked it?

Tom,  I'm not trying to split hairs but those of us members at Beverly recognize O'Neil's early influence but the club is primarily Ross today with the additional beauty that Ron P added a few years ago. The current position of our stately clubhouse and parkin lot was where O'Neil had the 18th hole originally.      Jack 

[J_ Crisham]

TMac,

Thanks for posting that. I recall them telling me that Australia story when I was viewing it in the pro shop. 

BTW, I believe the 18th was rebuilt by Don Herfort at some point and is the least in character green out there, which is not mentioned on that plan.  That map shows no pro shop and I recall them telling me that it was added for convenience later, necessitating perhaps the move of the 18th and I think a repositioning of the tenth tee, too.  Oddly, that map seems to show an alternate 10th tee location from the start which avoided the blind tee shot over the hill.  My memory again is that the tee currently sits on top of the hill.  I think they told me that at one point, they considered getting rid of the blind tee shot on 18 as well, but with no place to move the hole, cutting the hill was simply too much and they decided to "live with it" as it was.

A question for TD I always had - this map doesn't show any fw bunkers on 12, but you added a string of them on the right. I trust those showed on the 1930 aerial you were using?  Also, having seen versions of the sixth hole at WBYC (as close as Northland in Duluth, but also elsewhere) was this Ross's version of CBM's short hole?

I will follow Tom Doak's lead and say that since I don't know who designed WBYC I won't post endlessly on the subject.  I can easily speculate that Watson may have worked with the land planner on the routing with Ross brought in to do the final design, but I don't know how it evolved.  As we have seen, many of these early courses have a more complicated history, although we can all find more modern courses routed by a local gca and land planner and then built by a big name, too. (Don't ask me how I know that)

I will say that I photographed that map, and took it on a tour with me.  Using that, I believed that the second fw had some grading to level out the slopes and I always felt the contouring in that fw looked suspiciously like some other Ross contouring I had seen, notably at Beverly CC in Chicago.  Please understand that this is only me speculating and assessing based on my own two eyes!

White Bear is the epitome of a quirky gem that for some unkown reason flies under the radar.

Jeff,  Having played WBYC recently and Beverly a "few"  times over the past 31 years, I would agree with your description of the similarities. The timing is also pretty close as well.           Jack

[Tom MacWood]

Jack
What are the similarities?

[Jeff_Brauer]

TMac,

I was personally struck by the fw grading at the second hole at WBYC and the 11th hole at Beverly.  To me, the contouring and shaping of those fw seemed identical.  I mean, like someone used the exact same plan.  Or, it was the same operator.

Someone told me that the fw cut for vision to 11 green at BCC was done later so I may be way off base there.

[Phil McDade]

Didn't George O'Neil design Beverly and Ross later tweaked it?

Depends on your definition of "design" and "tweak." O'Neil, with the help of some early club members, did the initial routing. Holes 10-16, along with the 1st hole and what is now #8, essentially follow his routing (Beverly sits on two large, rectangular pieces of land, with the front nine on the northern parcel, and the back nine on the southern parcel -- Chicago's 87th Street divides the course in half). Ross came in about a decade later and substantially changed much of the course -- the club by then had bought additional land, so Ross had much more room to work with, esp. on the front nine. He also took advantage of a major ridge line on the front nine to site some tees and greens that O'Neil, partly owing to land constraints, did not. Ross also reconfigured the 11th hole green site, which then changed the par 3 12th green, moving it back, which also led to moving the 13th tee and his creation of a wonderful blind tee shot there. The back nine closers -- the long par 3 17th and and long par 5 18th -- are Ross originals, also brought about because of the addition of land. Ross also redid most if not all of the greens, most of them pushed up from their surrounds, and substantially changed the bunkering -- Beverly club members wanted to toughen the course, to make it comparable to some of its high-profile Chicago brethren at the time, and in particular Beverly was viewed as having less-than-demanding bunkering.

Phil
You're right, Ross did more than just tweak Beverly. From my analysis O'Neil (actually I think it was a collaboration O'Neil & Bendelow) is responsible for 1, 8, 10, part of 11, 12th green location, 13, 14, 15, 16, and the 18th green appears to be O'Neil's 17th green.

Tom:

I believe the 12th green location is different than where O'Neil originally put it. The drawing you depicted has the 12th green in the SW corner of the property, with the 13th tee on top of the ridge just to the east of the 12th tee. Ross moved the green northward (in conjunction with his changes on 11), and put the 13th tee very close if not exactly at the spot of the old 12th green, giving the 13th tee shot a blind element. There is a fair amount of room on the backside of the 12th green now, which the club maintains at closely mown height to add some difficulty to a green that runs off in the back -- one of the more notable greens at Beverly. As Jack says, the 18th green of O'Neil's is NLE -- O'Neil sited it hard against the northern edge of the southern chunk of property; Ross, with more land to work with on that section of the back nine, moved the 18th green southward as the ending point of a long par 5 that meanders for nearly the entire length of the southern half of the Beverly property.

Bendelow's role in Beverly has apparently been subject to some speculation. Tim Cronin's history of the club says Bendelow and O'Neil scouted out several locations for the club, and viewed the site eventually selected as "ideal" for golf. It goes on to say that the March 1908 issue of The American Golfer credits Bendelow for assisting O'Neil and two other club members in "selecting green locations," but "no other contemporary report of the club's founding notes such an intimate role for Bendelow." Other club records of the time limit the routing work to O'Neil and some early influential members of the club.

[Phil McDade]

TMac,

I was personally struck by the fw grading at the second hole at WBYC and the 11th hole at Beverly.  To me, the contouring and shaping of those fw seemed identical.  I mean, like someone used the exact same plan.  Or, it was the same operator.

Someone told me that the fw cut for vision to 11 green at BCC was done later so I may be way off base there.

Jeff:

The original tee shot for the 11th was somewhat blind -- a small hill obstructed the view, and the club had many debates over it (remove or not) until it was removed in the 1950s at the urging of golf architect Robert Bruce Harris.

Parts of the back nine at Beverly run over some fairly undulating land -- small sand dunes and ridges left over from the shores of old Lake Chicago after the glaciers receded. It's most evident on holes 11 and 15, which I believe are probably the two most undulating fairways at Beverly.

[J_ Crisham]

Jack
What are the similarities?

Tom,   My hope is that Paul Richards will weigh in soon as he has probably forgotten more about Beverly than probably most members have ever known.  I think that  the positioning of greens/tees on ridgelines and highpoints of both courses is very similar. The routing is also unique in that very few holes at WBYC move in the same direction incrimentally. This also is the same at Beverly. This allows the wind to really add to the challenge at both clubs. I shalll elaborate later as I am about to climb into a boat on this lovely 60 degree August day in IL!                  Jack

[Tom MacWood]

Jack
That is interesting. I wonder if William Watson also utilized high points for greens/tees in his designs.

[Rick Shefchik]

Adding what little I can to this discussion: WBYC as a Ross re-do fits in with the pedigree of other Twin Cities course, specifically Minikahda, designed by Watson and Robert Foulis in 1899, tweaked and expanded to 18 holes by Tom Bendelow in 1906, and redesigned by Ross in 1916; and Interlachen, also designed by Watson (who was the first pro at Minikahda) in 1911, and redesigned by Ross in 1919-1920.

Northland CC in Duluth never had lakeside holes as such, but the original course, laid out in 1899, had holes on both the north and south side of Superior Street. (The holes to the south of Superior Street, on the current site of Ordean Jr. High School, were several blocks north of Lake Superior). Jeff is correct that Northland acquired more land north of Superior St.  and brought Ross in to do a 18-hole redesign in 1927.

While acknowledging their antecedents, all four courses now consider themselves Ross designs.