Tilly's Curious Transformation

[Jeff_Brauer]

TMac,

I guess I am not sure I have ever seen your explanation of why you think the change was "curious."  While you say that others don't understand the era, I guess I don't see that an era with even profounder economic slide than now wouldn' have anyone reassess the role of a heavily bunkered course.

I also wonder if ANGC had something to do with it in pure architectural theory. If the most highly acclaimed course of the 30's had opened to rave reviews and had only 28 bunkers, wouldn't that have affected Tillie's view point?  If it got rave reviews with so few bunkers, but would be his justification circa 1935 for sticking with a more heavily bunkered golf course design recommendation?

Looked at in even broader terms, was Tillie a trend follower rather than trend setter in the 30's? How about the 20's and teens?  Was there a Tillie course that set a trend for a decade or more, or was he merely a very competent gca who fell in with the times?

[Tom MacWood]

Jeff
As I said in reply #11 to you, the word 'curious' was used tongue and cheak. I think it is obvious why Tilly went from designing the heavily bunkered Bethpage-Black one day and advocating bunker free zones the next.

Based upon Tilly's article written for the PGA magazine at the time of his bunker removal tour Tom Simpson appears to be his biggest influence regarding limited bunkering.
 
I said TEP did not understanding the economic realities of the time, and what was being done to prevent widespread foreclosures. The only reason he is trying to defend Phils' illogical story is because I'm the one claiming the story makes no sense.

Ironically Bethpage-Black and ANGC opened around the same time. And even though ANGC only had around 30 bunkers, there were a number of bunkers in Tilly's Duffer Zone. Due to economincs and war I don't believe ANGC set any trend. Off the top of my head I can't think of any Tilly course that was trend setting.

[TEPaul]

"I said TEP did not understanding the economic realities of the time, and what was being done to prevent widespread foreclosures. The only reason he is trying to defend Phils' illogical story is because I'm the one claiming the story makes no sense."


This is why it's a waste of time trying to discuss these things with Tom MacWood. I already said a couple of times that I am not defending Phil Young or his story, all I'm doing is pointing out if anyone really wants to find out the details of what happened to Tillinghast's real estate property in Harrington Park, NJ, all they need to do is go to the Recorder of Deeds in that County. IF (that is an "IF" Tom MacWood and not an acknowledgement on my part, a difference you seem to continuously fail to understand) that Harrington Park, NJ property of Tillinghast's had a tax lien on it and consequently went into foreclosure and an auction sale it would ALL be recorded at the County Recorder of Deeds.

That is all I'm saying or have said. Is it any wonder Tom MacWood keeps saying these things make no sense to him? It appears for whatever the reason he is incapable of grasping some pretty basic real estate, tax lien, mortgage law and economic realities which includes the fact that most all these things are ALL recorded at the local Recorder of Deeds (I doubt MacWood has even been inside a Recorder of Deeds office; he may not even understand what they are or that they exist). Frankly if anyone is even remotely interested in this subplot to these Tillinghast threads they should simply call up any recorder of deeds office anywhere, particularly in New Jersey (where Harrington Park is) and ask them if there were foreclosure sales in 1936 or in the mid 1930s. That would definitely shoot down MacWood's nonsensical notion and contention that they were all suspended during the depression due to economic realities.  

Tom, for you to say the only reason I'm responding to this subject is because it is you is most definitely flattering yourself. Just about everyone has already stopped responding simply because it IS you!

[TEPaul]

"And you are the one who is unable to put Tilly's property tax situation in an historical context...you seem to be oblivious to what was going on in the country at the time, and what extraordinary measures were being taken to help the average Joe."


Tom:

Do you really not understand what I am saying here? If one goes to the Recorder of Deeds in the county of Harrington Park NJ and looks up the title history of that property Tillinghast owned, it would be recorded in detail what happened, how and with and by whom in 1936.  It has to be IF what Phil and the Tillinghast family said is true. If none of it is recorded in the county recorder of deeds of Harrington Park NJ then it probably didn't happen or didn't happen as Phil and the Tillinghast family said it did.

What is it exactly about any of that that does not make any sense to you?

[Jeff_Brauer]

TMac,

I do remember your reply 11.

I have just returned from my morning walk in a park next door. Opened just a few years ago, it had several detail planting areas which always struck me as odd because I came out of LA school in the 70's, when it was clear that costs kept such detailed items from being included.  Parks were trees and lawns, because that is easiest and cheapest to maintain.  Somehow, a generation of LA's and Park Directors, who came up in the good times, have let themselves forget that maintenance cost is an important part of design.  I noticed that they were removing said landscape areas in droves for cost reasons.

In my career, I have never forgotten the maintenance aspect of design. I figure if its too hard to maintain, it will eventually go away, whatever other design merits it had.  There is no such thing as "pure design" in the real world.  Cost is a factor for all but a select few courses.

My point it, I still don't think Tilly turned away from any design principle of his.  He may have modified it to fit the times.  Or, he may have ALWAYS had the "first" principle of giving the client what they wanted, and it was simply the needs of the clients that had changed.