How Much of Ross' 407 Can We Trust?

[Patrick_Mucci]

Jaeger,

You're confusing the creative process with an assembly line process.

Ask Tom Doak what he thinks about pooling designers when it comes to the creative process
Have Nicklaus and Doak collaborated subsequent to Sebonack

Design by committee isn't a good idea

Patrick:

Collaboration can work just great, as long as everyone is comfortable with their own role in the process.  

Tom,

Everyone's "role" is subservient to yours, as it has to be.
There's a difference in being open to ideas and using the committee/collaborative method to craft a course

You should know this; you're fond of pointing out that we all have to collaborate with our clients.

That's not a collaborative relationship, that's an employer - contractor relationship, hence the phrase, "if you take the King's Schilling, you do the King's bidding"

I have designed 33 golf courses, and I have never done one of them all by myself, before or after Sebonack.  

Understood, but I haven't noticed co-design credit on any of those 33 courses.

I know a lot of smart and talented people, and I am not afraid to listen to their input and to utilize a good idea when someone suggests it.  

In fact, the guys who work for me will tell you that I'm particularly good at taking their ideas and improving on them.  

What about ideas that come from guys who don't work for you ?

And, fielding ideas with merit is entirely different than utilizing a structured "collaborative" approach


It's just seldom written up that way, because the publicists want to keep the story simple, and every other course is marketed by the lead architect's name.

Tom, you're not going to tell us that you employ a "committee" approach to all facets of your design process, are you ?

Most of the routings are mine, though certainly others have contributed a hole or two here or there.  I guess that's why my name is out front ... even though firms where the principal does NOT really do the routing are not unknown.

Tom, your name is out front because YOU and YOU alone are responsible for the product you produce.
Potential clients don't call your associates and employees, they call you.

No man is an island, but let's not put out the impression that you're a consensus manager, or that design concepts/features are the product of sitting around a table.

There's a substantive difference between spontaneous contributions and a formal design by committee process..

[Tom_Doak]

Patrick:

I have also co-designed two courses with Mike Clayton in Australia (Barnbougle and St. Andrews Beach) and one with Jim Urbina and a committee of others (Old Macdonald).  The relationships with them were different than my relationship with Jack Nicklaus, and the end products reflect that ... but somehow they are all ranked among the best courses in the world.

I've done other jobs where one or another of my associates contributed just as heavily as Mike Clayton or Jim Urbina did in the examples above, but they didn't get co-design credit.

There is a difference between "collaboration" and "design by committee".  I agree with you that it's best when a strong leader is designated to be in charge.  One of the important aspects of being a strong leader is being open to others' ideas when they're good.

[Jaeger Kovich]

That collaboration at Pine Valley sure didn't turn out well, obviously nobody understood their roles there!

If the 8 finalists for the Olympic bid, how many "names" teamed up with partners to sell their ideas to the committee there? Even the winner, Gil partnered with Amy Alcott. Can you name the 1 architect of the 8 finalists that didn't name the company after himself?

I'm not aware of any professional sports team that has total equality between the players. Every team has a captain, every team has a coach, and every team has role players. They are still partners collaborating to deliver the best possible result, same as the really good design build teams.

In many cases I'm for a total golf dictatorship, but when you have a big 3, which is rare, you should use it... How many rings does Lebron have from his Cleveland days?

[Patrick_Mucci]

Jaeger,

Pine Valley wasn't the product of a collaboration.

Crump figured out most of the design and sought input from independent architects who stopped by and offered their thoughts.

Colt, Tillinghast and others were consulted with, but, in no manner, shape or form was Pine Valley designed in a collaborative effort.

Tom Doak,

I understand the value of imput from knowledgeable, dedicated associates.
It can certainly add to the quality of the finished product.
But, someone has to decide what ideas are discarded and what ideas are implemented.
And, that someone is YOU.
YOU and YOU alone are responsible for the artistry that goes into producing a playable golf course.

Jaeger's  concept was along the lines of a formal committee, collaborating to formulate a design.
While their might be some tangential benefits, compromise often dilutes and mutes the creative process.

I never saw a statue commemorating a committee.
There always seems to be a single guy, riding his trusty mount.

[Jaeger Kovich]

Jaeger,

Pine Valley wasn't the product of a collaboration.

Crump figured out most of the design and sought input from independent architects who stopped by and offered their thoughts.

Colt, Tillinghast and others were consulted with, but, in no manner, shape or form was Pine Valley designed in a collaborative effort.

Tom Doak,

I understand the value of imput from knowledgeable, dedicated associates.
It can certainly add to the quality of the finished product.
But, someone has to decide what ideas are discarded and what ideas are implemented.
And, that someone is YOU.
YOU and YOU alone are responsible for the artistry that goes into producing a playable golf course.

Jaeger's  concept was along the lines of a formal committee, collaborating to formulate a design.
While their might be some tangential benefits, compromise often dilutes and mutes the creative process.

I never saw a statue commemorating a committee.
There always seems to be a single guy, riding his trusty mount.

Formal committee? nope.

I'm not talking about formulating a design, I'm talking about producing a great golf course.... I dont think you get it. Stop thinking about drawing a bunch of stuff on paper

[Patrick_Mucci]

Jaeger,

Not even an informal committee.

[Mike_Young]

There is a difference between "collaboration" and "design by committee".  I agree with you that it's best when a strong leader is designated to be in charge.  One of the important aspects of being a strong leader is being open to others' ideas when they're good.

Tom,
I sincerely believe you collaborate with the employees you choose.  I try to do the same.  
But for many in this business you and I both know such is just a sound bite.  For many of the prominent Signature firms it can't happen that way because the employee knows so much more about it than the name on the design.  I often think it is the contractor that wags the tail of many of these types of firms.  We all know shapers that can laugh about taking "green  5 from course A and building it on hole 7 of course B"....
The difference between the two processes is passion.

[Jonathan Webb]

The routing shown for Lake Pierce Country Club is not what was constructed at Lake Wales Country Club.

I'm more unsure who actually designed the front 9 now, Ross or Raynor, but the back 9 was constructed in the 1950's.  It's possible the work done in the 50's followed an earlier routing.

[Rees Milikin]

The routing shown for Lake Pierce Country Club is not what was constructed at Lake Wales Country Club.

I'm more unsure who actually designed the front 9 now, Ross or Raynor, but the back 9 was constructed in the 1950's.  It's possible the work done in the 50's followed an earlier routing.

I have been doing some research on Polk County's golf history with Scott Edwards (who is spearheading the Florida Historical Golf Trail) from the Florida Bureau of Historic Preservation, and discovered that Lake Pierce Country Club was a Donald Ross course that was located & built directly 3 miles east of Mountain Lake.  After talking with Scott, neither of us has found any evidence that Ross ever worked at Lake Wales Municipal (now CC) and only Seth Raynor has been identified with designing the front 9 (not sure if his back 9 plans were carried out by someone else or a new back 9 design was built) at Lake Wales. 

I am working on a little essay on Polk County's rich golden age golf history and I am pretty blown away by how much went on in this one rural county back in the 20's (still pretty rural), and now coming back to life with Streamsong.