[Ben Sims]

I'm gonna say that Wyatt manned up the next day on #9 at Kingsley.  I do remember someone corking one 320 down the middle on 8 with a locked up back....

[Matt MacIver]

I have no knowledge of the course, so don't shoot: but in the sole picture here of #3, the green looked....plain.  What am I missing? 

Also, my first impression looking at the 7th green was "partial E".  Coincedence, subliminal or homage or other? 

[John Mayhugh]

I have no knowledge of the course, so don't shoot: but in the sole picture here of #3, the green looked....plain.  What am I missing? 

Also, my first impression looking at the 7th green was "partial E".  Coincedence, subliminal or homage or other? 

Photos don't do a good job of capturing green contours w/o the right lighting and positioning, especially just using a point & shoot camera.  The third green is certainly not flat.  One could putt off it just as easily as many others on the course.  Here are a couple more photos, though they don't really prove what I'm saying. 

[Jon Heise]

I'll add a few shots. 

First of the 7th green from the left side. 


The back tee at 3. 


Then looking back at 4's green.


My favorite spot, kneeling under the big tree right by the clubhouse, looking down on #9.

[Jim Colton]

I have no knowledge of the course, so don't shoot: but in the sole picture here of #3, the green looked....plain.  What am I missing? 

Also, my first impression looking at the 7th green was "partial E".  Coincedence, subliminal or homage or other? 

Our host hit a beautiful putt on 3 that curled around the hole and had to have been in motion for 8-10 seconds.  There is nothing plain about #3 or any of the greens at CD.  They are still in my dome almost a week later.

[Tom_Doak]

Matt MacIver:

The resemblance of the 7th green at Ballyneal to the 7th at Crystal Downs is certainly not a coincidence (although the fact they are both the 7th hole, is).

I had been looking for many years to build a green which had some of the same character as MacKenzie's boomerang at Crystal Downs.  It took me that long to find a good site for one -- and I almost missed it, at that.  The green site for the 7th at Ballyneal was a narrow half-pipe rather than a boomerang bowl, so it wasn't obvious at first glance that a green like this could work.

Jim Colton asked earlier how much of an influence Crystal Downs has had on my own designs.  I'd say probably as much as any other course in the world, or at least right up there with St. Andrews, National Golf Links, Royal Melbourne, and a handful of others.  It is the course that cemented my belief that short par-4's are the key to the best courses in the world; and certainly I have always admired its wild set of greens, although I don't think I've ever built a course with greens quite that difficult.

As for specific examples, other than the hole at Ballyneal, the first one I think of is the fifth hole at High Pointe.  I tried to make the tee shot there (to the top of a ridge, or over it) similar in character to the tee shot of #15 at Crystal Downs, to where the good player would probably want to back off the tee shot a bit to avoid an awkward downhill stance for the pitch to the green.  Later on, the ownership at High Pointe added a new back tee to make you hit driver to the crest, ruining that idea!

We also started a hole at The Rawls Course with the 15th at Crystal Downs in mind ... the par-4 11th.  Unfortunately, I haven't played that one enough to know if there is any playing resemblance.

And I've tried three times to build a green similar to the 13th at Crystal Downs (a Maxwell concept -- he also used it for a hole or two at Old Town Club).  The 7th at Black Forest was the first try, but I thought that turned out too severe; the 5th at Apache Stronghold was a little better; and the 3rd at Riverfront is better.  But then I decided I was trying to use that idea too much, so I've only built one like it in the last ten years -- the 9th at St. Andrews Beach, which is one of my personal favorites that we've built.

[Wyatt Halliday]

I have no knowledge of the course, so don't shoot: but in the sole picture here of #3, the green looked....plain.  What am I missing? 
Also, my first impression looking at the 7th green was "partial E".  Coincedence, subliminal or homage or other? 

Our host hit a beautiful putt on 3 that curled around the hole and had to have been in motion for 8-10 seconds.  There is nothing plain about #3 or any of the greens at CD.  They are still in my dome almost a week later.

Matt,

The general consensus from everyone you talk to is the lovely catchphrase "stay below the hole". Seems easy enough right? On many courses that means simply trying to hit the front of each green. On this golf course, below the hole could be anywhere. As a first timer, it was an absolute mystery on several holes. From the third tee, we were told that the proper side (low side) to hit to was left. We wouldn't have had any other way of knowing that without being told (even though we were warned on #1 green as to which side of the property everything drained).

[Sean_A]

All I can say is I have to find my way to this place some day. 

Thanks for the pix George!

Ciao

[Matt MacIver]

Thanks to all re: add'l pictures and comments about the greens, they certainly give a broader context and understanding.  I love the idea that being below the hole isn't necessarily as simple as it sounds. 

[JC Jones]

Thanks for the thread George.  All I can say is that this course is the greatest place I've ever been to.  Better than St. Andrews, the Alps, out west, south of Spain, you name it.  It is the complete package.

Im not sure a non-golfer who doesn't spend many a summer in northern Michigan would hold the same opinion.

[Brad Fleischer]

[RSLivingston_III]

Here's mine for "show and tell":

[Tom_Doak]

Ralph:

That hole location in the back of #9 in your last picture might be the most brutal one on the course.  There is just no room around the hole at all.  If you play sensibly short with the tee shot, it's very very hard to get a putt up that slope from more than about 25 feet, without putting it off the green back left (which is a SERIOUS mistake).

It wasn't nearly so diabolical when the greens only rolled at 9.

[Kyle Henderson]

I can see why this course is ranked so highly, although most to whom I've spoken with about CD heavily favor the front 9 to the back.

How suitable would CD be for a college tourney or a high profile amatuer event?

[Nick_Christopher]

The Downs hosted the U.S. Sr. Amateur in 1991.  The course, the town etc. don't have the ability to host a large event, but could sustain a college tourney, etc.  The issue becomes weather.  Balls literally blew off some of the greens in 1991 as they hosted it in the early fall as I remember.  The conditions around northern Michigan in late Sep. / early Oct. can be highly variable day to day.

[Nick_Christopher]

Tom,

Even if MacKenzie and Maxwell anticipated the trees you mention to grow to their current size, it seems to me that one in particular defeats other architecture elements.  The tree above the bunkers at the top of the hill on #6 seems to force the player to play to the left and makes the hole less interesting.  If it weren't there, the player would be tempted to carry the steep bunkers, which if executed successfully would leave a shorter approach, and if not executed would result in a stiff penalty to get out.  When I was a kid caddying there, one of the club's best players at the time (Roy) used to play into the seventh fairway intentionally because of the better angle.  Certainly he would not have put so many other players' lives at risk if the maple tree were not there!

Curious to get your take on that particular tree.

[Carl Rogers]

Tom,

  That's the first time anybody ever mentioned me and astute in the same sentence.  Truth be told, I noticed it after somebody else pointed it out to me.

  It's probably been talked about here before, but how has Crystal Downs influenced your thinking and your designs?  Was it more influential early on than today?  Any specific holes you can tie back to holes or features at CD?

  Playing CD was like lifting the blinders that I had been wearing for many years.  I'm not sure I'll ever look at any golf course the same way again.  The greens require so much thought.

  Jim

Tom & Jim,
Riverfront might be a good point of departure for this new thread ... a lot of similarities in my mind ... not so with Beechtree (RIP).

[Tom_Doak]

Nick:

I know what you are saying ... if that tree were on an old course where I was consulting, I might well recommend to take it out.  But unless you are playing the back tees, the scabs [the local affectionate name for the bunkers on #6] are still not going to come into play much; if you drive over them you'll be in the right rough, so everyone would aim left of the tree anyway.

Incidentally, when they cut down all the lollipop trees in the 1990's, they left a couple of them alongside #6 tee so certain members (Dr. Roy) would have a harder time aiming over toward #7.  The trees are big enough now it's tough to do.

[Anthony Butler]

Sorry if this has been asked before: Has Crystal Downs always had such an open look or has there been any major tree removal programs over the years beyond the strategic instances mentioned in this thread?

[Nick_Christopher]

Tom,

In a lot of the old pictures I have seen of the course, it appears that there was less long rough and much of the course was mowed.  To play devil's advocate with respect to the tree, if there weren't long rough behind it, wouldn't it make for a tempting drive and give a new option of the tee? 

I am not suggesting it is in the same category as the cherry tree on 17, but I think it could improve the hole (sacrilege!).  BTW, I was offered a handsome reward on many loops to commit a bit of eco-terrorism on that tree.   

[RSLivingston_III]

I can see why this course is ranked so highly, although most to whom I've spoken with about CD heavily favor the front 9 to the back.

How suitable would CD be for a college tourney or a high profile amatuer event?

I was busy all that day shooting pics, so it was the members that had to deal with it.
Are you familiar with what that was shot for? The print version was probably with the rack removed...

[Kyle Henderson]

I can see why this course is ranked so highly, although most to whom I've spoken with about CD heavily favor the front 9 to the back.

How suitable would CD be for a college tourney or a high profile amatuer event?

I was busy all that day shooting pics, so it was the members that had to deal with it.
Are you familiar with what that was shot for? The print version was probably with the rack removed...

I have no idea, but I believe that I've contextual deduced the answer to my query.

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