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Anthony Gray

What would Bobby Jones and The Good Doctor think about Augusta National today?
« on: November 04, 2009, 08:30:00 PM »


  Discuss.

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Lynn_Shackelford

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Re: What would Bobby Jones and The Good Doctor think about Augusta National toda
« Reply #1 on: November 04, 2009, 09:50:55 PM »
They would consider it akin to a trip to the dentist.

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It must be kept in mind that the elusive charm of the game suffers as soon as any successful method of standardization is allowed to creep in.  A golf course should never pretend to be, nor is intended to be, an infallible tribunal.
               Tom Simpson

Anthony Gray

Re: What would Bobby Jones and The Good Doctor think about Augusta National toda
« Reply #2 on: November 04, 2009, 09:54:47 PM »
Quote from: Lynn_Shackelford on November 04, 2009, 09:50:55 PM
They would consider it akin to a trip to the dentist.




  Or being the one in the box and one guarding The Big E.

  Anthony

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David Stamm

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Re: What would Bobby Jones and The Good Doctor think about Augusta National today?
« Reply #3 on: November 04, 2009, 10:35:01 PM »
MacK would be disappointed.
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"The object of golf architecture is to give an intelligent purpose to the striking of a golf ball."- Max Behr

Anthony Gray

Re: What would Bobby Jones and The Good Doctor think about Augusta National today?
« Reply #4 on: November 04, 2009, 10:37:47 PM »
Quote from: David Stamm on November 04, 2009, 10:35:01 PM
MacK would be disappointed.

 David,

 Why. Thanks for your input and your knowledge.


  Anthony

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David Stamm

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Re: What would Bobby Jones and The Good Doctor think about Augusta National today?
« Reply #5 on: November 04, 2009, 10:41:06 PM »
Quote from: Anthony Gray on November 04, 2009, 10:37:47 PM
Quote from: David Stamm on November 04, 2009, 10:35:01 PM
MacK would be disappointed.

 David,

 Why. Thanks for your input and your knowledge.


  Anthony




Well, he'd say it was too green for one. But architecturally, so much has changed, he might not recognize the place. 
« Last Edit: November 04, 2009, 10:43:22 PM by David Stamm »
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"The object of golf architecture is to give an intelligent purpose to the striking of a golf ball."- Max Behr

Anthony Gray

Re: What would Bobby Jones and The Good Doctor think about Augusta National today?
« Reply #6 on: November 04, 2009, 10:45:37 PM »
Quote from: David Stamm on November 04, 2009, 10:41:06 PM
Quote from: Anthony Gray on November 04, 2009, 10:37:47 PM
Quote from: David Stamm on November 04, 2009, 10:35:01 PM
MacK would be disappointed.

 David,

 Why. Thanks for your input and your knowledge.


  Anthony




W

  Come on David give me more. The game has changed so much with the increase in length. How has that changed AN? The rough....Has The Masters become too much like the US Open? Give us your expert opinion.

  Anthony

 
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Chuck Brown

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Re: What would Bobby Jones and The Good Doctor think about Augusta National today?
« Reply #7 on: November 04, 2009, 10:58:40 PM »
My guess is that Bob Jones would be more disappointed than the good Dr.

I am thinkiing that Bob would be more acutely aware of the players' complaints.  Bob would listen very carefully to people like Ben Crenshaw; moreso, I think, than Dr. Mackenzie.  (Bob would be pleased in particular that Cliff Roberts no longer has to suggest that Ben visit the ANGC barber.)  I think that more than anything, Bob would be disappointed with how much water gets put on the course.

Everyone from the first half of the last century would be awestruck by modern carry distances, of course.  But Dr. Mackenzie would look at the game, and look at all of the equipment available to a modern golf course and green speeds and modern course construction and say, "My, what I could build now!"  (Maybe he'd also find time to see if possibly the club could make good on his bill from 1933, eh?)
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David Stamm

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Re: What would Bobby Jones and The Good Doctor think about Augusta National today?
« Reply #8 on: November 04, 2009, 11:08:17 PM »
Quote from: Anthony Gray on November 04, 2009, 10:45:37 PM
Quote from: David Stamm on November 04, 2009, 10:41:06 PM
Quote from: Anthony Gray on November 04, 2009, 10:37:47 PM
Quote from: David Stamm on November 04, 2009, 10:35:01 PM
MacK would be disappointed.

 David,

 Why. Thanks for your input and your knowledge.


  Anthony




W

  Come on David give me more. The game has changed so much with the increase in length. How has that changed AN? The rough....Has The Masters become too much like the US Open? Give us your expert opinion.

  Anthony

 


I'm no expert. I just know, based on AM's writings, that one shade of green "wall to wall" would not have been to his liking. He specifically mentions this subject. He liked the course to have all different shades of greens and browns. It would look entirely too manicured to him I'm sure. But most of all, the the holes being changed so drastically would've saddened him most of all. I would recommend Stan Byrdy's book for a synopsis of the changes. It's an eye opener to see the before and after comparisons. The bulk of his design, other than the routing, is gone.
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"The object of golf architecture is to give an intelligent purpose to the striking of a golf ball."- Max Behr

Anthony Gray

Re: What would Bobby Jones and The Good Doctor think about Augusta National today?
« Reply #9 on: November 04, 2009, 11:24:09 PM »

,


  David,

  Thanks again. The over manicured look I have always wondered if it was part of the initial intent. Isn't this the big issue/compliant with Jack's courses?

  Thanks,

  Anthony

 
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Jim Nugent

Re: What would Bobby Jones and The Good Doctor think about Augusta National today?
« Reply #10 on: November 05, 2009, 01:19:20 AM »
Quote from: Chuck Brown on November 04, 2009, 10:58:40 PM
My guess is that Bob Jones would be more disappointed than the good Dr.


I doubt this, because Bobby was there for so many of the changes. 
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Patrick_Mucci

Re: What would Bobby Jones and The Good Doctor think about Augusta National today?
« Reply #11 on: November 05, 2009, 09:13:11 AM »
Anthony Gray,

I what context would you evaluate the responses ?
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michael damico

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Re: What would Bobby Jones and The Good Doctor think about Augusta National toda
« Reply #12 on: November 05, 2009, 09:58:44 AM »
i think this is a great question, but really can't be answered by a generation twice removed. i think a better direction would be steering it towards is Augusta good for golf?

AN is what so many clubs strive to be like; The Augusta Factor. Everything must be manicured so pristinely that strategy, playability (which i hate as a term, but fits well here) and original design intent are sacrificed and put by the wayside.
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"without deviation from the norm, progress is not possible"
                                                                -fz

Chuck Brown

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Re: What would Bobby Jones and The Good Doctor think about Augusta National today?
« Reply #13 on: November 05, 2009, 10:46:21 AM »
Quote from: Jim Nugent on November 05, 2009, 01:19:20 AM
Quote from: Chuck Brown on November 04, 2009, 10:58:40 PM
My guess is that Bob Jones would be more disappointed than the good Dr.


I doubt this, because Bobby was there for so many of the changes. 

Excellent (and fair) point Jim.  But would you not agree that the changes that Bob oversaw in the years 1934-70, were ones that were substantially real estate improvements, and not so much a detraction from the quality of golf?  After the death of Alister Mackenzie, they reversed the nines, and they reconfigured almost all of the water around 12, 15 and 16.  Perry Maxwell, Mackenzie's collaborator, changed 10.  Other people tweaked at 9, and also 18.  These things we all know.  And through the 50's and 60's, the Eisenhower years, the course got greener, and smoother, and more of a garden-greenhouse.  (The Berckmanns would be happy, no doubt.)

But much more than Dr. Mackenzie, Bob Jones knew the difference between playing in a U.S. Open, and a British Open, and a Masters.  And that part would now, I think, be really bothersome to Jones.  That the Masters has been so distorted into a Georgia U.S. Open.
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Chuck Brown

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Re: What would Bobby Jones and The Good Doctor think about Augusta National today?
« Reply #14 on: November 05, 2009, 11:46:05 AM »
Jim Nugent -

One more thing about Jones' years at ANGC to observe and approve changes after the passing of Alister Mackenzie.  Jones was there for another 35 years, give or take, post-Mackenzie.

And, it has now been more than 35 years, since Jones' passing.

I'm not quite sure what that proves, other than that a lot of water has flowed under the Hogan Bridge since either one of them has had any say in how the course is maintained.
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Rick Sides

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Re: What would Bobby Jones and The Good Doctor think about Augusta National today?
« Reply #15 on: November 06, 2009, 10:32:52 AM »
I think they would think it looks more like a flower garden than a golf course
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Jud_T

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Re: What would Bobby Jones and The Good Doctor think about Augusta National today?
« Reply #16 on: November 06, 2009, 10:48:05 AM »
BUMP
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Golf is a game. We play it. Somewhere along the way we took the fun out of it and charged a premium to be punished.- - Ron Sirak

Gary Slatter

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Re: What would Bobby Jones and The Good Doctor think about Augusta National today?
« Reply #17 on: November 06, 2009, 02:24:15 PM »
I think they would love it, and understand.
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Gary Slatter
gary.slatter@raffles.com

Philippe Binette

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Re: What would Bobby Jones and The Good Doctor think about Augusta National today?
« Reply #18 on: November 06, 2009, 05:23:10 PM »
1) it's way too green...

2) who built those white things all over the place... some dare to call them bunkers.

3) where's the fun?

4) they should bring in rees jones... he gets it for restorations
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