When did Macdonald first employ Seth Raynor?

[Mike_Cirba]

Does anyone know the exact date or even the exact year when CB Macdonald first employed Seth Raynor to survey the property that was to become NGLA?

Thanks in advance for any info...

[Gene Greco]

Mike:

   1908.  Uncle George can give you an exact date.

Paging George Bahto.

 
      

[Mike_Cirba]

Gene,

I'm trying to understand if it was in 1906 before Macdonald purchased the property or after.

George's book says Raynor was hired in 1907, but I'm thinking that might be when he became directly and fully eimployed by Macdonald, not when he drew up the initial survey.

Thanks for any info..

[Bill_McBride]

Paging Dr. Moriarity!

[David Stamm]

No date is given in Scotlands Gift.

[DMoriarty]

Mike,  the date of the purchase?  Or the date the land was secured by option?   

[Tom MacWood]

I believe Raynor helped during the purchase, they took title of the property in the Spring of 1907.

The routing was first published mid-summer 1907 in the Brooklyn Eagle.

[Gib_Papazian]

It makes sense that the surveyor (Raynor knew nothing about golf when Macdonald retained him) would be involved prior to the actual purchase of the property if only to ascertain the boundary lines.

That stated, this thread looks like another argument waiting to happen.

[Peter Pallotta]

Mike - I don't know if this in any way connects (or addresses) your question; and I think it's probably been put on this site already by Joe B.  Sorry, I don't know how to post the entire thing, or cut and paste it as the print quality is poor -- but I found it at the Library of Congress.

The December 15, 1906 edition of the New York Daily Tribue has an article with the heading: "An Ideal Golf Course - Land Has Been Bought".  I don't see any mention of Raynor, but the article says in part (the opening paragraph, and then one from the middle/end):

"The "ideal golf course" begins to look like something more than a dream. After a year's study and search, Charles B. Macdonald announced last night that he had purchased 200 acres of land on the Shinnecock Hills"...."

"....A holding company has been formed consisting of Charles Blair Macdonald, president; James A. Stillman, treasurer; Robert C. Watson jr., secretary; and Devereaux Emmet and Daniel Chauncey, directors.  A committee to lay out the course has also been appointed, as follows: Charles Blair Macdonald, Walter Travis, H.J. Whigham, and Devereaux Emmet. This committee has been granted three months to stake out the course. After that a plaster of paris model will be made. This model will be an exact reproduction of the proposed holes.  According to Mr. Whigham, it will be possible to reproduce facsimiles of the famous "Redan" at North Berwick; the "Alps" at Prestwick; and the short hole at St. Andrews. There is also a neck calculated to present one of the best water hazards to be found anywhere...."

Actually, Mike, as I typed that out I realzied that it probably doesn't address your question at all -- but I thought it interesting nonetheless

Peter

[Anthony Gray]

Paging Dr. Moriarity!

  Bill,

  Didn't you go to high school with Seth Raynor?

  Anthony

[Jim_Kennedy]

......That stated, this thread looks like another argument waiting to happen.

No kidding.

If TEP or MC ever build a golf course they should name it "The Links at Hidden Agenda".

[Mike_Cirba]

Mike,  the date of the purchase?  Or the date the land was secured by option?  

David,

I'm asking whether he was hired to complete a land survey prior to the securing of 205 acres of land of 400+ available that they optioned in December 1906.


Jim Kennedy,

No hidden agenda...my understanding is that Macdonald optioned enough land (205 acres) in December 1906 to support both his golf course as well as his original real estate ideas out of 400-some available, and that when he optioned it, no specific boundaries were established until the routing was completed months later.    My understanding is also that Macdonald didn't really begin his routing of the course until Raynor did a contour map of the property.   So, yes, I'm trying to understand the timeline of events

I believe the process for routing and planning NGLA was extremely rigorous and detailed over many months.  

Yes, I'm also trying to understand parallels to Merion but I didn't put that in the first post simply to avoid the clutter and distraction.

Either it's knowledge that exists here or it's not.   No need for any debate.

[DMoriarty]

Mike I don't know if Raynor was hired in 2006 or not.   But Macdonald and Whigham rode the property and worked out the initial rough routing before they secured the acreage in December 2006.   Once they figured out the rough borders, I would think that someone would have had the land surveyed at least to figure out the acreage, but recall that their option allowed them some flexibiity to modify the borders as the worked out the details, so who knows?

Obviously Raynor became involved at some point, but I don't think determining the date of his initial involvement impacts the facts as we know them:   M&W viewed the property on horseback and roughly figured out where the holes would go, the land was secured based on this rough routing (allowing for some flexibility to adjust borders later), the details of the course were then planned and laid out in detail. then the purchase was finalized.    The date Raynor began working on the project will not change this.
___________________________

Jim Kennedy.  Mike misunderstood some old articles (including the one mentioned by Peter) and for a few months he has been arguing that it is a romantic myth that CBM and Whigham rode the property and came up with a rough routing before the land was secured.  So that is his agenda, hidden or not.   

[Mike_Cirba]

David,

I don't havt in front of me right now but I believe George's book indicates that Mac's rough routing was done on Raynor's contour map so I would think knowing the date of that survey could shed some light on this mystery.

[Bill_McBride]

Paging Dr. Moriarity!

  Bill,

  Didn't you go to high school with Seth Raynor?

  Anthony

He was a senior when I was a freshman, so just barely.

[DMoriarty]

David,

I don't havt in front of me right now but I believe George's book indicates that Mac's rough routing was done on Raynor's contour map so I would think knowing the date of that survey could shed some light on this mystery.

Mike,  I do have the book in front of me and it does say that CBM sketched out the holes on Raynor's survey, but if one looks at CBM's account this must have occurred AFTER CBM and Whigham rode the property and found the initial rough routing. From Scotland's Gift, with my emphasis added:

"However, there happened to be some 450 acres of land on Sebonac Neck, having a mile of frontage on Peconic Bay and laying between Cold Spring Harbor and Bull's Head Bay.  This property was little known and had never been surveyed.  Every one thought it more or less worthless.  It abounded with bogs and swamps and was covered with an entanglement of bayberry, huckleberry, blackberry and other bushes and was infested by insects.  The only way one could get over the ground was on ponies.  So Jim Whigham and myself spent two or three days riding over it, studying the contours of the ground.  Finally we determined what it was we wanted, providing we could get it reasonably.  It joined Shinnecock Hills Golf Course.   The company agreed to sell us 205 acres, and we were permitted to locate it as to best serve our purpose. Again, we studied the contours earnestly; selecting those that would fit in naturally with the various classical holes I had in mind, after which we staked out the land we wanted.
        We found an Alps; found an ideal Redan; then we discovered a place we could put the Eden hole which would not permit a topped ball to run-up on the green.  Then we found a wonderful water-hole, now the Cape.   We had a little over a quarter of a mile frontage on Peconic Bay, and we skirted Bull's Head Bay for about a mile.  The property was more or less remote, three miles from Southampton, there thoroughfares and railroads would never bother us-- a much desired situation.
       When playing golf you want to be alone with nature.
       We obtained on option on the land in November, 1906, and took title to the property in the spring of 1907. . . .

Later in the same chapter CBM wrote that he had first hired Raynor "to survey our Sebonack Neck property" and then to create a contour map, etc.   

[George_Bahto]

Great contour map but the lower right hand corner was long lost - no date on the map

[George_Bahto]

Macdonald’s Scotland’s Gift:

pp 202

“Seth Raynor: Employing him to survey our Sebonac Neck property, I was much impressed with his dependability and seriousness I had him make a contour map and later gave him my surveyor’s maps which I had brought from Scotland and England, telling him that I wanted those hole laid out faithfully to those maps. For three or four years he worked at my side ........”  Etc.

After the survey/blueprint was completed Macdonald then used that blueprint to roughly plot out various hazards he was thinking about - in yellow crayon ..... then there are India ink marks over some of these yellow marks where he made adjustments on the hole strategies.

It was a CBM working survey in progress

From what CBM wrote, it seems he and Whigham “found” the “holes” they wanted and inside that context he then looked for a surveyor to survey the property and then lay out the holes.

Now - this, to me is the COMMON SENSE chronology but it seems, often, common sense is not easily acceptable on our website.

So I would say NO actual date you are looking for (unless buried in old Merion minutes or something)

[Gib_Papazian]

The Pope of New Jersey hath spoken from his lectern.

Who dares contradict he who has deciphered the gospel?

Not I.

Now, we return you to our regularly scheduled mini-series: Pointless Arguments About Merion.

The real question to me is what would have happened if Macdonald had been successful in buying the property on which the original Shinnecock was routed?

 

[DMoriarty]

Thanks George.  That is my impression as well. 

[Mike_Cirba]

George/David.

While it's clear that cerain template hole dependent on topographical features such as the redan and alps were part of the review of the land for general applicability for their purposes, I'm hearing from Mac's account that sites for 4 holes were clearly identified prior to securing the land.

Having been on any number of site reviews, I am quite aware of how that exercise works, but that to me is still far, FAR different than actually doing a routing in a day or two as is the clear implication.

It's analogous to completing the first couple of sections of a jigsaw puzzle, worried whether there are enough pieces left to complete the puzzle and hoping that the 75 pct or more that is still unresolved actually fits into the nore obvious pieces, while recognizing that if it doesn't, you may have to start from scratch.

I'm not sure how this "rough" exercise...I don't see how anyone could fairly call it a routing,,,is representative of the assiduous and painstaking process Mac actually employed to route the course at NGLA.

[DMoriarty]

Mike,  I don't think CBM wrote that he only found four holes.  You are making a leap by assuming these are the only holes he found.   These are three of the four templates (the Road is not mentioned) plus what he considered his truly original concept.  The rough routing enabled them to identify the 205 acres they needed.

Again from Golf Illustrated, presumably written by Max Behr on the "Green Committee" page,April 1915 (emphasis added:)

. . . The ideal links is only to be made in any locality by finding the most suitable situation in a general way and then laying out the best eighteen holes that the nature of the land will admit irrespective of the amount of property used in the process. And this is really the most economical plan in the long run . . .
. . .

Generally there are natural features to be made use of, and they should be employed without thinking of economy. The ideal method was followed at the National. First the right sort of territory was found. Then the course was roughly sketched out using all the best features of the landscape. Then enough land (about 205 acres) was bought to embrace all the necessary features. And in actually laying out the course (which really laid itself out to a large extent) no concession was made to economy in the use of land. Even so a considerable part of the 205 acres is not touched by the course and is available for other purposes. And there you have the solution of the whole business.



The roughly routed the course before the secured the 205 acres.

[Mike_Cirba]

David,

Thanks for the additional info which is similar to what I thought although I'd still love to know when Raynor was hired to survey the properrty.

In any case, this is much different than what was presented about Merion's land acquisition but let's pick that up on the other thread. 

[DMoriarty]

Mike,  no information has been presented here that has not been presented repeatedly in the other threads.

I'd prefer we not rehash it yet again on this or any other thread.