Taylor and anticompetitive behavior

[Sean_A]

Peter -

Well said. I would quibble with your reference to "legitimate". No one said that the design ideas expressed by Taylor, Vardon, Braid and others weren't legitimate. They had a perfect right to their opinions. The objection of Low, Colt, Darwin, Simpson and others was that those sorts of ideas resulted in boring courses for better players. I will spare you the irony alerts.

Sean - Perhaps I am misreading you. Can I assume you aren't suggesting that Bob Jones advocated "penal" (again, the fudge) architecture?

Bob

Bob

No, just the opposite.  Jones made a clear distinction in how he saw the majority of courses in the UK as being strategic whereas many in the States were not  - in his opinion.  I assume this was part of the reason Jones got involved with Augusta - to help build what he thought was a strategic course in a similar vein to TOC. 

Ciao 

[BCrosby]

Sean - Gotcha. Agreed.   Bob

[Niall C]

Sean
I didn't say he was a penal architect, if there is such a thing. I said he leaned toward the penal based on his free use of bunkers, and his elevated well bunkered greens. His courses were generally more heavily bunkered than many, and you can his influence in America. In N. America Toronto, Old Elm and PVGC, were all well bunkered. He had a strong influence on Ross, in particular his elevated well bunkered greens.

Tom

I always thought that Ross got his basic design philosophy from his time at Dornch with his time spent with John Sutherland and visiting amateurs like Low. I'm thinking here of the raised greens etc which seem to be a trademark of Ross's (I've never played a Ross course, but obviously have seen Pinehurst on tv etc) Am I wrong ? Did Ross work with Colt or did he just see some of his ideas somewhere decide to copy them ?

Niall

[Tom MacWood]

Sean
I didn't say he was a penal architect, if there is such a thing. I said he leaned toward the penal based on his free use of bunkers, and his elevated well bunkered greens. His courses were generally more heavily bunkered than many, and you can his influence in America. In N. America Toronto, Old Elm and PVGC, were all well bunkered. He had a strong influence on Ross, in particular his elevated well bunkered greens.

Tom

I always thought that Ross got his basic design philosophy from his time at Dornch with his time spent with John Sutherland and visiting amateurs like Low. I'm thinking here of the raised greens etc which seem to be a trademark of Ross's (I've never played a Ross course, but obviously have seen Pinehurst on tv etc) Am I wrong ? Did Ross work with Colt or did he just see some of his ideas somewhere decide to copy them ?

Niall

Ross worked with Colt in Chicago in 1913 on several courses, including Old Elm, and did some follow up work for Colt the following year.

In 1910 Ross traveled to the UK for the expressed purpose of studying golf architecture. I believe he was over there for two or three months. I suspect he saw some of Colt's work at that time, and quite possibly met the man. There is major difference between Ross's pre-1910 work and post-1910 work, which leads me to believe the Dornoch influence may be slightly overblown.