[Bob_Huntley]

In an earlier post by Jamey Bryan, my dear friend Rich Goodall made what I considered a boo-boo in saying that playing for money against better players, without a handicap adjustment, would lead to an improvement in one's game.

Having played in some interesting games at Riviera in the seventies, I think that guile and cunning can help but after a certain number of years playing the game one's game does not materially improve. I am not thinking here of the teenager but a player who has come to the game later in life.  Studies have been carried out that about 4 years into your golfing experience you find a niche and generally stay ther until old age and infirmities relly screw you up.


Bob

[Jed Peters]

In an earlier post by Jamey Bryan, my dear friend Rich Goodall made what I considered a boo-boo in saying that playing for money against better players, without a handicap adjustment, would lead to an improvement in one's game.

Having played in some interesting games at Riviera in the seventies, I think that guile and cunning can help but after a certain number of years playing the game one's game does not materially improve. I am not thinking here of the teenager but a player who has come to the game later in life.  Studies have been carried out that about 4 years into your golfing experience you find a niche and generally stay ther until old age and infirmities relly screw you up.


Bob

Shit, so I've peaked?

[Rich Goodale]

Bob

One of the great things about golf is that you can peak late in life and peak more than once.  I was an 8 from the time I started playing golf semi-seriously at age 22 or so until I was nearly 40 when I took the gambling cure and dropped to 4.  20-25 years later, I still get down to 4 every 5 years or so.  I'm sure I could get lower than that if I ever spent any significant time on my game, but I don't have the time to do that.  As a great man once said, "Don't look back—something might be gaining on you."

Rich

[Charlie Goerges]

Bob,

I agree with you that after a certain amount of time we can't materially improve. Or to put it another way, we won't get much better at hitting a little white ball.

But I think that most of us don't play up to our potential. I think we can improve our mental game a great deal. I am playing about 3-4 times a year right now (last few years) but I shoot about the same scores that I did 15 years ago when I played 50-100 times a year. I'll agree my swing hasn't improved, but given the lack of play/practice, I should be so much worse. In a way I am much worse, as I don't hit the ball anywhere near as well as back then. But I'm way more likely to make smart decisions and play within myself now.

I think a similar improvement can be experienced by anyone. It may not be a material improvement, but it is a handicap improvement.

[Bill_McBride]

I don't know, I am so down on my game right now I don't know the right answer. Maybe taking the game up later like Rich is the right thing, I can't get past what I did as a kid and it is frustrating me right now as I near the mid-century mark. I thought a 20 year old waitress was the answer until last week.

Is a 20 year old waitress ever the answer?

[Tim Gavrich]

I don't even know if gambling has a whole lot to do with it.  I met my best friend from middle school and high school when we were both in 5th grade (on a little league baseball team, actually).  He was a good bit better than I was at that point but as we started playing golf together all the time, I found I improved pretty rapidly, as did he.  He and I are approximately the same caliber player now (he's got the edge on me; he plays for D-1 Davidson College).  We never played for money head-to-head; only bragging rights.  I have found that playing with great players does nothing but good things for my golf game.

Of course, Trevino's adage about "playing for $10 with $5 in your pocket) can't hurt, suppose.

[Eric_Terhorst]

I thought a 20 year old waitress was the answer until last week.

Kelly, your coda "until last week" suggests that there is an entertaining short story in your comment 

I would think you might find with a 20-yo waitress  the answer to a few good questions, but not the one Bob posed.

Bob, I believe (key word) I agree with Rich that if you play in money games with better players at your club, without getting shots, you will get an education and that may improve your game.  Might be more expensive than taking a lesson though. 

Isn't the key lesson of playing with better players that: they make alot more putts within ten feet than you do?

[Richard Boult]

Now 50, I've been playing exactly 4 years and just reached my career-low index last month (1.4) -- and I'm pretty sure I just peaked. That's likely as low as I'll ever go... I just don't have the time or energy (or motivation) to chisel away at it any further... I'm already drifting back to a 3 or 4 handicap where I'll find a niche and generally stay until old age and infirmities really screw me up. More interested now in learning more about gca and less about numbers and stats.

[Phil McDade]

I thought a 20 year old waitress was the answer until last week.

Isn't the key lesson of playing with better players that: they make alot more putts within ten feet than you do?

They also get within 10 feet of the hole from off the green more often than I do. And they get to THAT position -- to make a shot that is easy to place within 10 feet of the hole -- more often than I do.

[Jason Topp]

I respectfully disagree with Sir Bob. Anyone can improve it they want to work at it consistently.  Most people do not want to do so and improvement is much more difficult once one hits a wall.

I think people generally peak after 4 years because that is the amount of time you improve simply by being exposed to the game more.  After that point you only improve if you actually work at and improve some portion of your game.

I was probably a 3 handicap when I played Division III college golf.  I know I was a 16 when I had two toddler kids and decided I was going to work to improve or quit.  I have since embraced practicing and trying to improve and have enjoyed the game a lot more as a result.  Since then I have worked my index down to 4.5, had it go back up to 8.8 and now it is in the 6 range.

The club champion at my club as well as my former course both have improved dramatically from their level of play 10 years ago even though they both have been playing for decades.

[Bob_Huntley]

Now 50, I've been playing exactly 4 years and just reached my career-low index last month (1.4) -- and I'm pretty sure I just peaked. That's likely as low as I'll ever go... I just don't have the time or energy (or motivation) to chisel away at it any further... I'm already drifting back to a 3 or 4 handicap where I'll find a niche and generally stay until old age and infirmities really screw me up. More interested now in learning more about gca and less about numbers and stats.

Richard,

You are to be congratulated, yours is a serious improvement if you did indeed pick up a club just four years ago. Were you a hockey player at one time?

Statistically you are an anomaly.

Bob

[Richard Boult]

Were you a hockey player at one time?

Bingo! Picked up roller hockey when I was 35... played regularly since... played 2 winters on a pond as a kid in Chicago so I at least knew how to skate.

I think people generally peak after 4 years because that is the amount of time you improve simply by being exposed to the game more.  After that point you only improve if you actually work at and improve some portion of your game.

Personally, I think the improvement from simply being exposed to the game more (your potential with little effort) only lasts about 2 years. After that, any further improvement requires more work.

[Dave_Miller]

In an earlier post by Jamey Bryan, my dear friend Rich Goodall made what I considered a boo-boo in saying that playing for money against better players, without a handicap adjustment, would lead to an improvement in one's game.

Having played in some interesting games at Riviera in the seventies, I think that guile and cunning can help but after a certain number of years playing the game one's game does not materially improve. I am not thinking here of the teenager but a player who has come to the game later in life.  Studies have been carried out that about 4 years into your golfing experience you find a niche and generally stay ther until old age and infirmities relly screw you up.


Bob

Bob:
So now I know why you are always telling us you need more shots than your handicap would allow.   
Best
Dave

[John_Conley]

Now 50, I've been playing exactly 4 years and just reached my career-low index last month (1.4)

Wow, that's awesome.  You must be playing an awful lot of golf.

[Richard Boult]

Now 50, I've been playing exactly 4 years and just reached my career-low index last month (1.4)

Wow, that's awesome.  You must be playing an awful lot of golf.

So much golf that I've failed to keep up with all the gca photo tour links at delicious.com/golfclubatlas this year! I hope to catch back up... I'm very fortunate to be working flexible hours from home (software development) and get out 2-3 times per week... year-round!

[George Pazin]

I don't know, I am so down on my game right now I don't know the right answer. Maybe taking the game up later like Rich is the right thing, I can't get past what I did as a kid and it is frustrating me right now as I near the mid-century mark. I thought a 20 year old waitress was the answer until last week.

Starting later in life is one of the worst possible options, probably second only to not starting at all. You might think you're frustrated now, but you don't know what real frustration is.

20 year old waitresses might be able to help a 38 year old experience frustration.

[Phil Benedict]

I started very early in life, playing on a course by 10.  Didn't play consistently from college to middle age.  Joined a club at 50 and started to play regularly again. Got to 3+ index two years ago but regressed last year.  Resigned from my club and now play irregularly (GCA event last weekend was first round in 4 weeks).

Through 40+ years of playing my game never really changed.  The sense of forboding I get standing over the ball never went away, reinforced by a lifetime of hitting catastrophic shots.  Not that I don't hit good shots - I do, better than the majority of golfers can execute, but that doesn't make me a good golfer.

I've decided that I don't have the mentality to be a good player.  I tend to expect the worst, whereas I've found the best golfers tend to be optimistic by nature.  So I've forsaken reaching peak performance, concluding that I was kidding myself to think that I could find the magic bullet that would take away the fear.

[George Pazin]

I tend to expect the worst, whereas I've found the best golfers tend to be optimistic by nature.

So are the worst, otherwise they'd quit.

[Richard Boult]

I've decided that I don't have the mentality to be a good player.  I tend to expect the worst, whereas I've found the best golfers tend to be optimistic by nature.  So I've forsaken reaching peak performance, concluding that I was kidding myself to think that I could find the magic bullet that would take away the fear.

As I've probably shared before, Fred Shoemaker's book Extraordinary Golf, really helped me learn to expect the best (not my normal attitude), even after that duff, shank, skull, or whatever... and remain open to the possibility that this shot and this round could still be extraordinary. Perhaps due to my newfound attitude, my regular playing partner says I suck all the luck out of the golf course and don't leave any for him.

[Bob_Huntley]

I've decided that I don't have the mentality to be a good player.  I tend to expect the worst, whereas I've found the best golfers tend to be optimistic by nature.  So I've forsaken reaching peak performance, concluding that I was kidding myself to think that I could find the magic bullet that would take away the fear.

As I've probably shared before, Fred Shoemaker's book Extraordinary Golf, really helped me learn to expect the best (not my normal attitude), even after that duff, shank, skull, or whatever... and remain open to the possibility that this shot and this round could still be extraordinary. Perhaps due to my newfound attitude, my regular playing partner says I suck all the luck out of the golf course and don't leave any for him.

Richard,

I went to a Short Game clinic by Fred shoemaker just two weeks ago. The best bunker lesson that I've ever had. Played sixty shots from the sand and never missed one. The very next day went out and promptly scuffed every bunker shot I hit, but I must say I remained positive about the whole experience, I didn't swear once.

Bob 

[Rich Goodale]

 Very recent research implies that saying the "F" word loudly and angrily after a real or imagined error will improve ones mental well being but "F**K" if I can google the reference!!!!!

[Jed Peters]

Richard,

I went to a Short Game clinic by Fred shoemaker just two weeks ago. The best bunker lesson that I've ever had. Played sixty shots from the sand and never missed one. The very next day went out and promptly scuffed every bunker shot I hit, but I must say I remained positive about the whole experience, I didn't swear once.

Bob 

Bullshit.

FYI, Bob--I'm coming down to see you.

Next Monday or Tuesday? I've got work in the area....again....

[Jason McNamara]

Very recent research implies that saying the "F" word loudly and angrily after a real or imagined error will improve ones mental well being but "F**K" if I can google the reference!!!!!

Pain management technique:

http://news.yahoo.com/s/livescience/swearingmakespainmoretolerable

I had to smash my finger in a car door to look it up - hope you're happy.

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