[Ran Morrissett]

Unlike the famous east coast public course (Bethpage Black), Rustic Canyon enjoys three very good sub-350 yard holes.

Which of the three is your favorite and why?

Cheers,

PS It will be interesting to see how evenly distributed the votes are.

[Mike_Cirba]

12 is my favorite, for it's ambiguously wide fairway, the temptation created by seeing the green from the tee on the slight dogleg left (which pulls the golfer's attention), the incredible bulbous rise on the green that can be almost inpenetrable with the pin atop it, the proximity of the OB fence on the left to the green, the sharp fall away left and behind the green, the green orientation which is similar to 10 at Riviera, the down-canyon (and often downwind) feeling one gets on the tee that puts the golfer in an aggressive mood, and the fact that anything from a 2 to a 7 is possible by many players.

All of that being said, the hole plays better from the 305 yard tee than the 335 one, simply because more players will be tempted to go left.

[brad_miller]

Ran, my preference goes to #'s 3 and 7 over 12. Seems to be more thought on the tee with those 2 holes over 12. I believe #12 like #10 at Riveria would be even better with some bunkering. Played #7 by carrying the wash and had much better 2nd shot angle, laying up might take 6 off the table, but depending on pin isn't an easy shot. Haven't though of situation that I wouldn't hit driver on 12.

[brad_miller]

Ran, what are your thoughts? By the way I do like all 3!

[GeoffreyC]

I loved the green on #12, especially the pin we played to on Sunday.  

However, I enjoyed the banter on the tee of #3 when we were choosing a route of play.  I went right in the AM and left in the PM round.  Left was more hazardous but the little pitch and run approach from that side was fun. #3 got my pulse up a bit more then #12. I tentatively think that something should be put into the fairway on #12.

I also really liked #7 because of the choices off the tee. I believe that as players come back for repeat visits they will try different ways to play the hole.  This hole was the least obvious to play in different ways.  I thought the wedge or 9 iron approach from short of the waste area is a pretty standard way to got par but a real birdie opportunity awaits those who blow it over the waste to the right fairway.

I'm really curious to see what regular customers say about this question as well as what are their favorite features of the course in a year's time.

[DMoriarty]

A difficult question.  The problem with answering questions like this is the tendency to elevate one hole at the expense of the others.  I like all three for different reasons.  But, if forced to choose . . .  At this point I am leaning toward number 3, probably because it is freshest in my mind, given my discussion with TEPaul on the other Rustic thread:

1.  As I explained on the other thread, I really like the hidden back bunkers, which have the potential to significantly alter the approach and the tee shot.

2.  The choices off the tee present a higher level of risk than the tee shot on 12, but a lower risk level than the tee shot on 7.  The wasteland and the bunkers in the middle of the fairway on 3 feel very much in play, and the left side of the fairway on 3 looks tiny from the tee (even though it is quite large).  Throw in the risky possiblity of driving the hole, ala JohnV, and  you have a great short par 4. Frankly, I am afraid to try for the right fairway on 7, even though I can see the advantage of doing so.  The risk just appears to outweigh the reward for me.  Maybe next round I wont be such a chicken.

3. I am thinking that others might vote for 7 and 12, and I really want an even vote.

Now, given that it takes a while to understand things at Rustic, I may change my mind.  The right fairway on 7 sometimes be the way for me to play the hole-- If I ever get the guts to try.  And, If I ever figure out what to do with the terrific green on 12, it will probably become my favorite on the course.  

[brad_miller]

David, your not an attorney are you???

[David Kelly]

David,
With a decent wind at our backs during the afternoon round I drove over the bunkers in the center on #3 and ended up in the chipping area in the front of the green. If I can do that then a lot of people can so hopefully that will not be the prevailing wind.

The tee shot on #12 fits my ball flight perfectly (lefty fade) so the decisions for me start on the second shot. I really can't envision a situation where I wouldn't just blast a driver.

Until I figure out the right places from which to approach the various pins on #7 I would say that that is my favorite short Par 4.

[TEPaul]

I'm very interested to follow the reviews, opinions etc on Rustic Canyon and particularly the short holes #3 & #12.

Athough I've not seen the holes built I do have clear idea of them. #3 is a wonderful short par 4 but the hole, the problems, strategies, options and probably the expected thinking of golfers and their opinions playing it was more straightforward or let's say easier to imagine.

#12 however really wasn't--not to me anyway! I view, and possibly Geoff, Gil and Jim view #12 as a bit "theoretical" in concept. I view it as a very different type of hole for most golfers and I think there was always a question of whether golfers would,

1. Get it at all! Whether they would ever have much idea what the theory or the concept of it was supposed to do and to be.

And 2. If the concept would even work at all as it was expected to. In some sense the expectation was that golfers very well may take a long time to understand how to play it, maybe some never would.

But in the other sense the expected or hoped for concept was that since they really didn't understand what its meaning was that it would take its toll on them scorewise because of that.

The primary reason I thought that the concept was so interesting was because the tee shot area was so enormous but primarily because there was nothing on it to get the golfer in trouble. Basically this was almost the whole point. But just because he really couldn't get in trouble on the tee shot didn't mean he hadn't sort of gotten himself in trouble. And the reason why was that the placement of the tee shot had everything to do strategically with the placement of the pin on the green, altough unthinking golfers might not know that on the tee.

That was sort of it in a nutshell, at least to my understanding. So in effect to work as it should there should be an ideal but different place to drive the ball but only depending on particular pins--certainly nothing to do with the tee shot in and of itself as a single shot.

But if it turns out that there are certain pins which are equally difficult from anywhere on the fairway or pins that are equally easy from anywhere on the fairway then it would not be functioning exactly how I visualized it.

The point was to make golfers aware of the true meaning of progressive strategy, how a shot related to subsequent shots although the shot at hand might have almost no meaning at all in and of itself--no bunkers to deal with etc. Even though the tee shot was enormous there was supposed to be real reasons to go to certain places on it at certain times.

Of course we all expected most golfers to look at the hole from the tee and think "what is this open nothingness all about?" But they would come to learn it quickly depending on where the pin was.

It seems like the hole definitely has the capacity to make a player pay in strokes sometimes but I'm really hoping it's to do with approaches from the wrong place instead of just a green that has a pin or two that's super hard from anywhere.

That's why I would recommend bunkering does not get put on that enormous fairway (at least not now) but if and only if the hole is working the way it was visualed to work.

[brad_miller]

Tom, I'am not sure you can recognize pin locations from the tee and you don't get a peak at it from other prior holes. Yes, way back or way up, but not beyond that. But, I could be mistaken. Don't think they will have pin sheets, thankfully!

[TEPaul]

Brad;

I didn't know you couldn't see the pin from the tee but I recall asking Geoff if it could be seen and I think I remember he said he thought it could be seen from somewhere on #11. Does that sound right?

If the pin held all the meaning on the hole it would be best if it could be seen from somewhere before hitting that tee shot. I'd sure prefer that to pin sheets, I think! Pin sheets can be wrong but the eyes don't lie. Well, your eyes don't lie, mine are beginning to.

[brad_miller]

Tom, don't recall it from 11 but it's possible, but still a long way off particuarly if you challenge the left side of the 11th fairway. Also the green complexes from the fairway are huge as their is yet no color difference between green and mowed down chipping area, when this comes it will help. In the end still don't know when I wouldn't play the same tee ball all the time, it may be my lack of understanding and sound judgement, and it might require a few more times played for us non doyens to get it.

[Don_Mahaffey]

I like them all, but I like 7 the best. With 3 and 12 the drama doesn't really start until the second shot, with 7 it's there from the get go, that is if your going for the green and I'm going!

[DMoriarty]

David,  I know what you mean.  But still, it is drive over trouble with  o.b. left, and and a bunker long and right.  If you try for the green and get there, more power to you.  Plus, I don't think the wind will always help with the distance (It will probably help with the shape.)

Brad, I was wishy-wishy washy long before I was an attorney.

Brad and Tom.  I think you can see the pin on 12 pretty well from 11, especially if you walk over and dump your bag near the cartpath between 11 and 12, to conserve energy (I'm wishy-washy and lazy).

[TEPaul]

Hey Brad, you just generated the best answer to the question on the other topic about really meaningful strategies that are hard to find with your post on this thread on spotting the pin on #12 Rustic Canyon!

We all know that hole strategies can only really be on particular holes but there's one that's very hard to find for #12, so hard to find, in fact, that it's actually on #11!

I'm not sure what the strategic meaning of driving down the right side of #11 is as opposed to going down the left side but it might be wise to drive down the right side of #11 anyway for the sole strategic reason of spotting the pin on #12 because that has so much meaning to the tee shot on #12 coming up!

[GeoffreyC]

Tom

Riviera #10 has distinct penalties for a tee ball that is improperly placed.  Layup to the left is conservative but leaves a good angle up the length of the green IF YOUR DISTANCE CONTROL IS GOOD.  Hit it a bit too far on a line to the left and you are in the bunker.



If you go at the green and hit it too far right there are consequences as well.  You need to go over the greenside bunker (a later addition by Thomas I believe to tweek the hole) to the shortside of a green that runs away sharply.

My point is that Riviera 10 has distinct and real consequences and penalties for each shot that is poorly played to the wrong spot.

My question to you is why shouldn't #12 at Rustic offer the same penalties AS WELL AS the same options?

[Mike_Cirba]

Geoffrey,

To disagree with your point, I would say that the answer is because it is "non-obvious".  In a way, I think Tom is suggesting that it's all a "head game".  

Here you have this wide fairway, acres of it, out to the right of the green.  Do you aim away from the ultimate target (the green), or do you feel yourself start to shade your drive back to the left, where trouble lurks?  I think most would be drawn to the left, which might leave them in a very untenable position, given hole location.

Although we both love the bunker penalty on the drive at 10 Riviera, we also both know that there are penalties other than the obvious, which is dictated by the positioning of the hole and the type of shot required after driving to the "wrong" position.  

Perhaps it was just from our first go-round there, playing with long-hitters JohnV & Don Mahaffey, but I saw those guys in some really tough predicaments after both driving right at the green and hitting seemingly good shots.  I think their final scores were 4 & 6.  (sorry guys, but we all agreed that we might have re-thought our strategies given another shot at it).

[TEPaul]

GeoffreyC:

Firstly, when speaking about #12 Rustic Canyon I would remind you I haven't seen it built (although GeoffShac did send me a number of really good photos). You all have played it and Geoff, of course, could comment better than all of us on the hole.

Your question is why shouldn't #12 offer the same penalties AS WELL AS the same options as #10 Riviera? I'd say Mike Cirba answered much about what the concept of #12 Rustic was supposed to be and his remarks could answer much of your question. Although somewhat similar to Riviera's #10, Rustic's #12 was supposed to have some real distinct differences from Riv's #10!!

In effect the holes are quite similar just with different arrangements of "design features". First #12 Rustic with it's big fairway and its green much more off to the left than #10 Riviera (which is more straight-on to the golfer on the tee) is supposed to have the effect (as MikeC explained earlier) of pulling the golfer's attention (and pyschologically his aim) at the green (this is a short enough hole to do that). At least I believe that to be true.

In concept, as well as in fact sometimes, this alone is a very very neat design feature that's quite subliminal and effective because its subliminal and it may be something that the hole does to the golfer that the golfer does not really intend to do!! I think that's good stuff!

And also if the hole can do that to the golfer despite the fact that there is so much fairway off to the right of the green  that's an obvious safe play it makes the fact that the green  pulls the golfer's aim at it even more interesting. At least it does to me.

If the enormous open fairway was bunkered up (even like Riviera's #10) I just think that effect would start to lose some of this very interesting strategic and pyschologic ploy!!

But that's just one part of the conceptual theory of the hole and probably not the most important part of it.

I think I'll break the rest of my feelings on #12 into separate posts (since my posts get too long) but I should say that this hole (and #13) are not my concepts as somebody said on the Rustic thread. All the holes of Rustic were developed in concept and design by GeoffShac and by Gil and Jim Wagner long before I ever got there.

What I did with GeoffShac and the next day with Jim Wagner is only discuss how those concepts could be best developed on the ground and how they would actually work with golfers.

But they thought them up and developed them, I just happen to think they are very interesting theoretical concepts and variations on themes on other holes (like Riv's #10)! What I'm primarily interested in right now is if and how they are working as they were supposed to or not. And if they aren't why?

[brad_miller]

Tom, challenge the left on #11, it can shorten the 2nd shot by 1-3 clubs if done well, then walk over with putter in hand and peek at pin on #12. Are we answering Ran's question with all this banter?? Might be a good hole for GS to camp out one saturday morning and see what goes on

[TEPaul]

Brad:

Well of course I was kidding about actually hitting the drive down the right on #11 just to get a peak at #12's pin. That's the type of economy of motion I might go for but probably doesn't make a lot of strategic sense on #11. Walking over to the right side of #11 would be good enough!

The point is to give the thinking golfer the opportunity to see a pin position of real consequence before he has to play a meaningful shot regarding it.

I always felt that kind of thing was a real neat feature design-wise on some courses, like best example #17 Pine Valley that's a blind pin on #17 but can be clearly seen on #11 tee by simply turning around and looking at it because #17 green is so close to #11 tee!

I think that's a real neat design feature on some courses but I recognize that from an architect's perspective that's the kind of thing they "luckout" with in a routing sense more than something they can actually design into the course.

[brad_miller]

Tom, I just thought you liked hitting your 4 iron more than 5-7!

[Geoff Shackelford]

Interesting observations, love to see the variety of opinions as to how holes play or should be played. That definitely is our hope with these short 4's and probably is due to the width as much as anything. The wind factor on these two holes is very strange too, but has worked out beautifully (and by coincidence, not shrewd design). The prevailing wind on both 3 and 12 helps the perfectly struck tee shot, while the wind knocks down the slightly off-center drive that isn't played with a right-to-left spin.

GeoffC brings up a good question and comparison with 10 at Riviera, which inspired the various discussions on 3 and 12 at Rustic. With the 3rd, we tried to create the type of penalties for placing in certain areas and not carrying off the shot ala 10 at Riv, while 12 was definitely meant to be more along the lines of what MikeC said, "non-obvious." I love the notion that everyone feels driver is the play, and that they have the green light to swing away. About one out of every three or four times I have played 12 (and I've tested it out more than any hole), I get careless and pull it left into the bunkers. That pretty much means a likely bogey or worse, but even better, leaves a memory, making for a tentative play the next time around! So for now, I'm against the notion of doing anything to take the blast driver notion away from 12, especially because the green is so tricky to play too.

Brad, the pins on 3 and 12 most definitely can be scouted out, which we gave a lot of consideration too on all holes. 3 can be seen on the way in (Ran spotted it on the way in Sunday) and 12 as you are playing 11. If the pin is below front on 12, you definitely would prefer to hit out to the right. Coming from the left, it's almost impossible to get it close because the green goes away from you. It looks like such an easy shot, but the ball just keeps on rolling and rolling when coming in from the left. And the greens aren't really even fast yet. From the far right, you have a great little backstop with the tier behind the hole. We almost put the hole up front Sunday, it may even be more fun than the top spots.
Geoff

[Yancey_Beamer]

#7.The key is the temptation on the drive.Much like a hole that entices you to flirt with a severe bunker until you land in it and then avoid it for weeks.I bet that the ratio of drives to lay ups will constantly and steadily change in your players.

[Pete Lavallee]

Although 3 and 7 present great alternate options, I won't give them first place due to the fact that you must play them once or twice to understand why you would want to play to the riskier option. The blind nature of the 7th green from the layup area and the tee doesn't give you a view of the green falling away from you. Only after you cross the bridge do you see that the angle from the right is the only way to get a shot close to the front pin. We all contemplated playing to the right side of 3, but couldn't find a reward comensurate with the risk. I'm sure these holes will grow on golfers once they play them enough to correlate the risk with the pin position of the day.

My vote goes to 12. I find it very similar to another great short par 4, the 12th at TOC. You can take the green straight on, but risk rolling through and have an even tougher shot coming bak. Playing well out to the right gives you a better angle to keep the ball on the narrow shelf. Further right will allow for a full wedge, which I didn't think would work. But Lynn S. proved me wrong in the afternoon round with a perfect wedge that hit just at the base of the shelf and came to a dead stop on top, I just couldn't see that option working. I chose the run up, but had the wrong weight in the am, and came up short. In the pm round I got the weight right, but a direction error or just a few feet shrugged my shot off to the back, where up and downs are very hard to come by. I doubt any regular player will tire of the options this greensite presents. Was there any thought of replicating the option's of TOC 12th on this hole? In any case it's a great short par 4 hole!

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