[Phil Benedict]

Some very short par 3's have really tiny targets.  The challenge of the hole is to hit that target or face a tough recovery since you are basically short-sided whether you miss left or right.  I recently played such a hole at the Country Club, one that is not used in the composite course.  I though it was pretty cool even if a bit one-dimensional.  Basically a downhill pitching wedge but not that easy because the target was so small.

The CBM Shorts have huge greens (Old Mac's for example), so there is more variety but the tee shot isn't nearly as intimidating.

I think the really small target makes for a better hole because of the visual challenge of the tee shot.

[Tim Gavrich]

I think that a shot to a Short green can be intimidating as long as the internal contours are preserved.  I agree with you if we're talking about the Short hole at Yale, which has one of the least interesting greens on the course, but I would argue that the Short 18th at Greenbrier-Old White can be very intimidating, given the big ridge on the green.

[JNC Lyon]

Short Greens are much more interesting if the contours are properly designed.

The key factor is that the hole can vary so much from day to day.  One day, the player must hit a cut shot into the green.  The next, a draw.  If the sections of the green are small enough and the surrounding bunkers deep enough, the target will be just as intimidating.  Furthermore, hitting the green on a "Postage Stamp" par three almost always gives the player a good look at a 2, meaning the hole is much more of a scoring hole than a "CBM Short."

That being said, the short-game options around a Postage Stamp green are often wild and maddening.

[Bill_McBride]

Variety is the spice of golf, I'd like to see one postage stamp, one short (big green with a doughnut  ), one longish, and one uphill carry, for the four par 3's.  Or some other mixture of the par 3's.

One of the only negatives I see at the Olympic Club Lakeside course is the lack of variety in the par 3's, three of them are very similar.

[Phil McDade]

There are several notable examples of Shorts, both CBM/Raynor as well as offshoots of those (I'd argue the 17th at TPC is Dye's homage to a Short). Are there examples of Postage Stamp holes out there other than the one at Troon?

JNC -- What to me is notable about Troon's Postage Stamp is the variance of scoring possibilities there. The green is sufficiently deep (30 paces deep) but it's quite narrow, and it's pretty easy to go to and fro from bunkers on one side to the other.

[Phil Benedict]

Phil,

I didn't mean a hole that literally copied the Postage Stamp, but any short par 3 with a very small target.  Certaintly the hole I played at the Country Club fits this desciption.  Actually the green had ample depth but very little width, which is what made the shot scary.  The 7th at Pebble has a pretty narrow green as well, doesn't it?

I have a tendency to swing too easy on short-iron shots to narrow, well-guarded greens; steering in other words.  Steering is never a good thing but I still do it.

[Jim_Kennedy]

Phil,
I don't think one is better than the other, just different. I like what you like about small greens/short par 3s, but I think big greens can make a player complacent about his upcoming shot, sometimes to his dismay. 

A good short hole with a big, interesting green might not have the same pucker factor, or cause as many double bogies as its opposite number, but it's just as likeable.

[Phil McDade]

Jim:

I agree; my sense is that the classic Short represents something of a deception, in that it's often surrounded by lots of trouble, causing the golfer to think twice on the tee and perhaps induce some fear, but the green itself is fairly large. The postage stamp-type hole -- 2 or 20 comes to mind right away -- seem like truly difficult short-short iron shots, because the target is quite small and trouble lurks close by, and there is perhaps not as much room for error.

[Richard Hetzel]

I like the smaller target as long as there is ample room surrounding to make a play for par.

I may have just played the SMALLEST postage stamp green ever this past week on Jekyll Island. Par 3, about 165 from the tips, this green is SUPER TOUGH to hit, it's just a fraction of a normal green's size. There was ample room for a decent chip shot to still make par here. A very simple, and simultaneously a great hole.

[Patrick_Mucci]

Some very short par 3's have really tiny targets.  The challenge of the hole is to hit that target or face a tough recovery since you are basically short-sided whether you miss left or right.  I recently played such a hole at the Country Club, one that is not used in the composite course.  I though it was pretty cool even if a bit one-dimensional.  Basically a downhill pitching wedge but not that easy because the target was so small.

The CBM Shorts have huge greens (Old Mac's for example), so there is more variety but the tee shot isn't nearly as intimidating.

I think the really small target makes for a better hole because of the visual challenge of the tee shot.

Phil,

I think the answer to your question might lie within the qualities of the individual site.

Certainly, # 7 at PBGC seems best served by the "postage stamp" concept, whereas, a grander scaled course would seem to beg for a "short" type of hole.,

[JC Jones]

Some very short par 3's have really tiny targets.  The challenge of the hole is to hit that target or face a tough recovery since you are basically short-sided whether you miss left or right.  I recently played such a hole at the Country Club, one that is not used in the composite course.  I though it was pretty cool even if a bit one-dimensional.  Basically a downhill pitching wedge but not that easy because the target was so small.

The CBM Shorts have huge greens (Old Mac's for example), so there is more variety but the tee shot isn't nearly as intimidating.

I think the really small target makes for a better hole because of the visual challenge of the tee shot.

Phil,

I think the answer to your question might lie within the qualities of the individual site.

Certainly, # 7 at PBGC seems best served by the "postage stamp" concept, whereas, a grander scaled course would seem to beg for a "short" type of hole.,

In its current form yes, but the posted pictures of the 1963 #7 at Pebble showed a much larger green.  When I think postage stamp, I think front pin on #2 at Kingsley.  I both love and hate that hole at the same time.

[Mike Bowline]

#17 at Sand Hills would also qualify as a short, tiny green with bunker ping-pong definitely an opportunity for those who miss the NARROW (and uphill, therefore hidden)target. A very intimidating hole that makes it necessary to hit one straight or suffer the consequences.

[Niall C]

There are several notable examples of Shorts, both CBM/Raynor as well as offshoots of those (I'd argue the 17th at TPC is Dye's homage to a Short). Are there examples of Postage Stamp holes out there other than the one at Troon?

JNC -- What to me is notable about Troon's Postage Stamp is the variance of scoring possibilities there. The green is sufficiently deep (30 paces deep) but it's quite narrow, and it's pretty easy to go to and fro from bunkers on one side to the other.

Phil

Good question. Darwin described the 13th at Muirfield as a Postage Stamp hole in his book "Golf Between Two Wars". In it he said that he wasn't sure which had come first. The 9th at Silloth is also another very good postage stamp hole. I would characterise the Troon and Silloth holes as both being short (120 to 130 yards), playing directly into the prevailing wind with a fall off and bunkers right of green and bank and bunkers to left. The trick is being able to control your shot into the wind, otherwise you could end up with a big score if you miss the green.

Not sure what others are out there.

Niall

[Mark Pearce]

I was going to mention the 9th at Silloth.

[Phil McDade]

There are several notable examples of Shorts, both CBM/Raynor as well as offshoots of those (I'd argue the 17th at TPC is Dye's homage to a Short). Are there examples of Postage Stamp holes out there other than the one at Troon?

JNC -- What to me is notable about Troon's Postage Stamp is the variance of scoring possibilities there. The green is sufficiently deep (30 paces deep) but it's quite narrow, and it's pretty easy to go to and fro from bunkers on one side to the other.

Phil

Good question. Darwin described the 13th at Muirfield as a Postage Stamp hole in his book "Golf Between Two Wars". In it he said that he wasn't sure which had come first. The 9th at Silloth is also another very good postage stamp hole. I would characterise the Troon and Silloth holes as both being short (120 to 130 yards), playing directly into the prevailing wind with a fall off and bunkers right of green and bank and bunkers to left. The trick is being able to control your shot into the wind, otherwise you could end up with a big score if you miss the green.

Not sure what others are out there.

Niall

Niall:

My "Strokesaver Guide to the Classic Courses of GB & I" lists the 13th green at Muirfield as 44 paces deep, 50 percent larger than the depth of Troon's 8th. Both are pretty narrow, and heavily bunkered on each side.

[Tom_Doak]

We actually went with the concept of a Postage Stamp green for the 12th at Sebonack.  I believe that was my suggestion, but Mr. Nicklaus supplied the dimensions and contours of the green at Troon from memory.  The fall to the right is not nearly as steep on our version, though ... if we'd built it up as high as Troon you wouldn't see the bay behind it!

[Mark Pearce]

There are several notable examples of Shorts, both CBM/Raynor as well as offshoots of those (I'd argue the 17th at TPC is Dye's homage to a Short). Are there examples of Postage Stamp holes out there other than the one at Troon?

JNC -- What to me is notable about Troon's Postage Stamp is the variance of scoring possibilities there. The green is sufficiently deep (30 paces deep) but it's quite narrow, and it's pretty easy to go to and fro from bunkers on one side to the other.

Phil

Good question. Darwin described the 13th at Muirfield as a Postage Stamp hole in his book "Golf Between Two Wars". In it he said that he wasn't sure which had come first. The 9th at Silloth is also another very good postage stamp hole. I would characterise the Troon and Silloth holes as both being short (120 to 130 yards), playing directly into the prevailing wind with a fall off and bunkers right of green and bank and bunkers to left. The trick is being able to control your shot into the wind, otherwise you could end up with a big score if you miss the green.

Not sure what others are out there.

Niall

Niall:

My "Strokesaver Guide to the Classic Courses of GB & I" lists the 13th green at Muirfield as 44 paces deep, 50 percent larger than the depth of Troon's 8th. Both are pretty narrow, and heavily bunkered on each side.

The effective depth of the 13th at Muirfield is less than 44 yards because of the steep slope (almost a false front) at the front of it.

[astavrides]

We actually went with the concept of a Postage Stamp green for the 12th at Sebonack.  I believe that was my suggestion, but Mr. Nicklaus supplied the dimensions and contours of the green at Troon from memory.  The fall to the right is not nearly as steep on our version, though ... if we'd built it up as high as Troon you wouldn't see the bay behind it!

You didn't actually call him 'Mr. Nicklaus' when you were talking to him, did you?

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