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Anthony Gray

Re: Where are my guys?
« Reply #25 on: July 03, 2009, 08:15:20 AM »
Bradley,

In a search for something else this morning I stumbled across one of the "Honourable Company of Reverse Jans" threads--great antidotes to the Merion threads.

Maybe a hearty laugh would be good for what ails you?

  A hearty laugh. Great advice big brother.

  Anthony


PCCraig

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Where are my guys?
« Reply #26 on: July 03, 2009, 08:44:39 AM »
Maybe it's just that I'm from the midwest, but I never understood the passion for Merion from both members and non-members. It's too bad that some have grown frustrated with others and thier stubborness. Its just a given that many on here have a direct personal agenda and use the forum to go nothing but push it...which gets very old.

You have to wonder how threads on Fish Bars and yardage finders can get 1000's of views, but my legit thread on actual GCA of a well known midwest golf course (Crooked Stick) gets ignored except for one thoughtful post by T. Doak. Its sad.

However there is still so much neat stuff on GCA.com that it keeps me coming back daily, I've for one learned a ton and gained a higher appriciation for GCA since my first post almost five years ago.
H.P.S.

Eric_Terhorst

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Where are my guys?
« Reply #27 on: July 03, 2009, 09:00:33 AM »
Pat,

In a search for something else this morning I stumbled across one of the "Honourable Company of Reverse Jans" threads--great antidotes to being "sad."

I thought your post on Crooked Stick was adequately answered by Tom Doak.  Did it occur to you that maybe there are few others who are qualified to comment on a private club in Indianapolis?

Maybe a hearty laugh would be good for what ails you?



Phil_the_Author

Re: Where are my guys?
« Reply #28 on: July 03, 2009, 09:10:11 AM »
Bradley (& all others),

Tom is STILL a MEMBER! He may have chosen to no longer participate, but he is, in fact, a member. You can see this by looking at "Tepaul" under the member guide and it indicates that he is still an active member.

Tom also told me that he is no longer going to participate... if he sticks with that it is indeed a loss as was the case with Wayne AND ALSO the case for DAVID MORIARITY who hasn't posted in more than a while and TOM MACWOOD whi was removed from the site with Wayne.

But what about other passionate voices & lovers of golf course architecture? When was the last time any spoke with Dr. Childs for example.

Bradley, as far as David running his work past those at Merion first, while that would have been both prudent and polite, it certainly wasn't and isn't a requirement for any researcher to do so. Do I agree with his conclusions? NO! Do I defend his right to publish them and argue their veracity? YES! Do I defend the rights of those who disagree with him to tell him so and point out why? ABSOLUTELY!  Do I defend the right of "Merion" and their members to want to have nothing to do with David or anyone else participating in these types of discussions on this site or elsewhere? YES!

Under NO circumstances blame the administrators of the site for the less than stellar manner in which the participants both employed their power of reasons or behaved in expressing it!

PCCraig

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Where are my guys?
« Reply #29 on: July 03, 2009, 09:36:29 AM »
Pat,

In a search for something else this morning I stumbled across one of the "Honourable Company of Reverse Jans" threads--great antidotes to being "sad."

I thought your post on Crooked Stick was adequately answered by Tom Doak.  Did it occur to you that maybe there are few others who are qualified to comment on a private club in Indianapolis?

Maybe a hearty laugh would be good for what ails you?




Eric-

I don't take things too seriously. Believe me...in the end this is a niche internet discussion board.

I know Peter Jans well (grew up about a mile north of the place, and have lived within 5 miles of it for most of my life) and get a hearty laugh from the post.
« Last Edit: July 03, 2009, 11:32:36 AM by Pat Craig »
H.P.S.

Bill_McBride

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Where are my guys?
« Reply #30 on: July 03, 2009, 09:45:32 AM »
If the absolute true, irrefutable facts about the original design of Merion were known as well as the facts of the original design of Pacific Dunes are known, there would not have been tens of thousands of posts over the past few years on Merion's origins. 

I think it's absolutely fascinating that grown men could throw so much energy and time into expressing their personal opinions -- not facts mind you, but opinions -- into what developed into rancorous discourse.   If that much energy and time had been thrown at cancer research, imagine what might have happened!

I agree with everyone who says it's not Ran and Ben's job to moderate this kind of back and forth, and sad that it got so acrimonious that good people on both sides of the argument are staying away from this discussion board that they all seemed to cherish in happier times.

Happy Independence Day!

Mike_Cirba

Re: Where are my guys?
« Reply #31 on: July 03, 2009, 10:32:33 AM »
For what it's worth, Ran did not just grant David permission to post his essay here.   He explicitly agreed with it's conclusions, calling it overall "Excellent".

While that is certainly Ran's indisputable right, it does lend a somewhat different perspective to how it's been characterized so far on this thread.

This is what Ran originally wrote under the thread topic, "David Moriarty's Excellent, "The Missing Faces of Merion" Is Now Posted";


Here is a synopsis  of David Moriarty's carefully researched and heavily footnoted  13,000 word plus paper on the subject of the beginnings of the East Course at  Merion.
 
HH Barker did an initial routing in  1910.

Fresh off their stunning success at NGLA,  Macdonald and Whigham were called in to consult in 1910.
 
Member Hugh Wilson was asked to oversee  the Construction Committee for the purpose of 'constructing' the course. 
 
The course was built in 1911 and seeded  in September of that year, according to Wilson.
 
In May of 1912, Wilson returned from  Scotland according to a ship's registry that David Moriarty found.
 
In the years that followed, holes  were modified and bunkers were added until the course became the flawless  design gem that it is today. Wilson, who learned quite a bit from his study of  the great courses overseas, played a crucial role in the development of the  design of the East Course from 1912 until his death in 1925.
 
However, David suggests that the concept  that he went to the UK and then routed/designed Merion is chronologically  flawed. Wilson's initial role was to construct the course, as opposed to  design it. In 1911, his primary exposure to classic architecture was the time  he and his construction team spent at NGLA with Macdonald and Whigham. Indeed,  Wilson's own writings pay homage to the help  that Macdonald provided.
 
David's research suggests that  Barker, Macdonald and Whigham deserve design credit for the holes that were  laid out and seeded in 1911. Wilson deserves the credit for the  excellent construction of the holes and for translating Macdonald's  ideals so well into the ground. The end of Part One concludes in 1912, so the  knowledge that Wilson picked up in the UK in April/May of 1912 had not yet  made its way into the design. As David says, that is for another  day.
 
Why people get upset with the notion that  Macdonald provided design thoughts and ideas at Merion based on the best holes  in the UK is beyond my ability to comprehend. After all, if you wanted to  build a world class course, wouldn't you consult with the one man who had just  done so?   The thought that an amateur who had never been to the UK would seize  upon the Road Hole, Redan, etc. and properly execute their playing strategies  is both romantic and a bit far fetched, at least to me.   
 
Congratulations to David for all his well spent time and effort in coming up with this document, which is both compelling and original. Ben and I cannot express our deepest appreciation to  David for selecting GolfClubAtlas.com to house it.
 
Have a read and see if you don't agree with David's own conclusions - I know I do.

Cheers,

Michael Dugger

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Where are my guys?
« Reply #32 on: July 03, 2009, 11:15:36 AM »
Geez, has this discussion forum really turned into the U.S. Congress?

Whatever happened to bi-partisanship, folks? :P

Count me as someone who thought everyone was taking this Merion stuff far too personally.  We are talking about the history of a golf club, here, not a matter of life or death, or God, rape, abortion and my mama.

Those are about the only issues I find 'taking it to the nth degree' justifiable.

Otherwise, you are simply taking yourself, and the topic, faaaaaaar too seriously.

It's ironic that the man who coined the term, "It's a great big game, and room enough in it for everyone" couldn't, in the end, live up to his own proposed standard.
What does it matter if the poor player can putt all the way from tee to green, provided that he has to zigzag so frequently that he takes six or seven putts to reach it?     --Alistair Mackenzie--

Bob_Huntley

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Where are my guys?
« Reply #33 on: July 03, 2009, 11:18:16 AM »
Mike,

Thank you for the precis (sorry, can't find an accent) on David's Merion piece. I did not participate in the longest thread in GCA history as I played the course but once and was quite ignorant of the players in its gestation. It caused me much distress to see friends engaging in some pretty vitriolic exchanges and I wished it had not happened.

For Bradley to hint that Ran might not be welcome at any club, because of his attitude toward the dispute is quite asinine. Like many others here, I miss those contributors to this forum who have elected to stay away and can only pick up my gin and tonic and drink a toast to "absent friends."

Bob

Lou_Duran

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Where are my guys?
« Reply #34 on: July 03, 2009, 11:21:22 AM »
MCirba's read on Ran's endorsement of David's essay is the same as my original impression.  I read the piece fairly quickly the first time and had to go over it again to see if I could discover what Ran was so obviously taken by that I had missed.

In thinking about it later, the only thing I came up with is that Ran is spread very thin with his family, work, golf, this site, travel, and any number of other things he might be involved in.  He simply cannot be expected to micromanage the site and ensure that everything written has sound basis.  Perhaps his error, if any, was in his enthusiastic endorsement of David's very well written piece.

Perhaps the following is a short insight into Ran's juggling of his many responsibilites.  Several years ago, after Ran played Tryall in Jamaica, and so taken by the subtleties of the design, he asked me to do an article on its Texan architect, Ralph Plummer.  I agreed to do a short piece that he would then essentially re-write in what I thought would be a pictorial essay around his experiences at Tryall.

After some time, I sent Ran an E-Mail with a Word document containing a rough draft of my research.  I had asked Jeff Brauer to put down a few of his thoughts on Plummer based on his own work on and experience with the architect's courses.  This too was included in my E-Mail to Ran.  To my horror, and I think perhaps Jeff's as well, both pieces were posted unedited with a link to Ran's prior course review of Tryall.

Personally, I am not a stickler for form, particularly at the expense of substance.  GCA.com is not a scholarly web journal, and having had some exposure to academia, perfect grammar, formats, footnotes, and peer review are highly overrated in my opinion.  It all comes down to the quality of the analysis, the thought process.  This is a free site, and I suspect that the content is far superior to others on the net.  It is a great source of information- not perfect information-, great entertainment, and not bad for social networking either.   ;)         

Mike Hendren

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Where are my guys?
« Reply #35 on: July 03, 2009, 11:23:15 AM »
With apologies to Brad Paisley:

Well I'm gonna miss them
When I log back in
But right now I'm posting
Hey that fescue, is not really thin
I'm sure it will hit me
No more Tom Paul and them
Gone to Max's Lounge
Oh, lookie there I got an IM.

Mike
« Last Edit: July 03, 2009, 11:36:51 AM by Michael_Hendren »
Two Corinthians walk into a bar ....

Bob Jenkins

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Where are my guys?
« Reply #36 on: July 03, 2009, 12:48:31 PM »

I agree completely with Bob Huntley.

In the last few years I have been involved in this group, I have made several good friends and look forward to learning, participating and good times. However, when I see a Merion thread carrying on for 45 pages, I simply do not want to look at the acrimony I know will be on those pages which is so contrary to the good fellowship that is prevalent here. It is one thing to disagree and voice contrary opinions but it is another thing to be insulting eachother in a manner that cannot lead to a positive result or come to some agreement on the time line for Merion. And, on top of that, I have never been to Merion and likely will never get there.

Let's just get along!

Norbert P

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Where are my guys?
« Reply #37 on: July 03, 2009, 12:57:58 PM »
  Well let's just hope that Tom and Wayne are focusing their efforts on "The Book".  Ya know, it's been so long I can't even remember what it was supposed to be about.

If Tom's anecdotes of his life's events were ever put into a collection, it would become a classic.

All right and honorable gentlemen
And ladies, too
Will kindly try to restrain themselves
In derring-do

As verbal hard graffiti flies
And echoes wall to wall
Our precious model of democracy
It's the Merion Timeline brawl

Commons Brawl 
IA


« Last Edit: July 03, 2009, 01:03:34 PM by Slag Bandoon »
"Golf is only meant to be a small part of one’s life, centering around health, relaxation and having fun with friends/family." R"C"M

Carl Nichols

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Where are my guys?
« Reply #38 on: July 03, 2009, 01:09:44 PM »
I think that all those guys in Philadelphia were defending something important to them that was coming at them from outside their territory.

Sounds like the mafia.

Patrick_Mucci

Re: Where are my guys?
« Reply #39 on: July 04, 2009, 10:17:49 AM »
Brad,

I believe that you and others critical of Ran, regarding Merion, will be shocked and proven wrong in the not too distant future.

Mike_Cirba

Re: Where are my guys?
« Reply #40 on: July 04, 2009, 02:26:57 PM »
I don't know, Pat...if we're moving towards Barker's Mystery Train I'd say we're getting colder, not warmer.

Isn't some type of proof what was promised three years ago?