Ellis and Dan Maples

[Tim Gavrich]

Having vacationed for a while in Pawleys Island, SC, I have had a chance to play a few golf courses designed by Dan Maples, which I have enjoyed.  Also, Ellis Maples (along with long-time Palmer partner Ed Seay) redesigned one of my golf team's home courses, Lexington CC, which is also a pretty solid course, if a little short for us brawny D-III college golfers!  .

I have seen relatively little discussion of the Maples' as GCA quantities.  What say y'all?

Cheers.

--Tim

[Jay Kirkpatrick]

In my opinion, Ellis (and dan for that matter) is one of the more underappreciated architects.  He did some great work during the GCA "dark ages".  I particularly think he excelled at routing a golf course.  His bland bunkering style leaves something to be desired, but I think his greens are generally pretty interesting.

[John Moore II]

I have played several courses designed by Ellis, CC or Whispering Pines and Pinehurst #5 come to mind quickly, and have played one by Dan, The Pit. I thought Whispering Pines and Pinehurst #5 were were good, traditional courses and I would say that #5 is probably the 4th best course at the Resort, behind #2, #4, and #8. I can't say too many good things about The Pit however. The first time I played there, I said I wouldn't go back; I went back and saw nothing to change my opinion of the place. I have heard good things about both however. I think in many ways, they are both regional architects, doing a lot of work around the Carolinas area.

[CJ Carder]

I can't say too many good things about The Pit however. The first time I played there, I said I wouldn't go back; I went back and saw nothing to change my opinion of the place.

To me, The Pit just seems to suffer from (what I assume is) a low maintenance budget.  The one time I played there, I saw some potential in the holes, but I believe it would take quite a bit of work to realize that potential.  From opening it up a bit on some holes to clearing up a few of the sight lines, if someone felt like pumping $2-$3 million into the place, I think it could be a serviceable play.

The Pit also might suffer some from its location amongst the giants in Pinehurst.  I actually think that this is a common theme among a number of the Maples' courses.  Whether they be in Pinehurst, Myrtle Beach, or even here in Williamsburg (Ford's Colony), there always seems to be a better option to play on a golf trip.  That also might wind up being an indirect commentary on the quality of the designs, but I suppose you could have an interesting chicken-egg discussion on that front.

[Jay Kirkpatrick]

I actually kind of liked The Pit.  There were some really interesting golf holes there (albeit surrounded by some mediocre ones).  I think of The Pit as Tobacco Road Lite... a controversial over-the-top design before that came back into fashion.  Of course, I've only played it once (partially through a driving rainstorm) so my experience there is limited.

I also really like Willbrook Plantation and The Witch -- both Dan Maples designs.

Getting back to Ellis, Grandfather and CCNC speak for themselves, but some of his less heralded designs (Keith Hills, Carlson Farms, Deep Springs, Sapona) have won many admirers in the NC/SC area.  None of those courses, however, have a high profile... so he hasn't received the acclaim outside of the region.

[Mark Pritchett]

I enjoyed CC of Orangeburg (SC), a fun layout with interesting greens.  Here in the Augusta area West Lake and Goshen are well routed, walkable, and solid member/neighborhood courses.  I can see where the bunkering might be a bit bland for some people. 

[Brent Hutto]

Tim,

If you're ever passing through Columbia you're welcome to sample Columbia CC. We have a 27-hole Ellis Maples routing c. 1960, mostly intact although there was a spruce-up about a decade ago that relocated some fairway bunkers and a few of the greens got recontoured. What we now consider the "front" and "back" nines are reversed from the original 18 holes but as often as not we play them in the original order depending on what tee time you draw on a given day. With the original ordering the flow is outstanding and you get a feel for why some guys like Maples back in the day were considered routing experts. A very nice walk is possible across all 27 holes with each 9th green 50 yards or less from the 1st green of the next nine.

Our third nine was laid out a few years after the original 18 and was somewhat modified during the work 10 years ago. I really like it but the bigger hitter find it a bit tighter and less rewarding of the power game than the original course. All in all, an excellent walkable "members course" that holds up well to city-level or even mini-Tour level players if we roll the rather tricky greens and tuck a few pins.

[Jay Flemma]

Dan is one of the friendliest men I have ever met:  charming, convival, and sincere.  He's got golf in his DNA, and the everyone in Pinehurst loves him and his family. They have dedicated their lives to the game, and to the Pinehurst area as well.  The love they get back from that community is well deserved.  The Pit is fun.  Even TD had some nice things to say about it in the CG.

[John Moore II]

I actually kind of liked The Pit.  There were some really interesting golf holes there (albeit surrounded by some mediocre ones).  I think of The Pit as Tobacco Road Lite... a controversial over-the-top design before that came back into fashion.  Of course, I've only played it once (partially through a driving rainstorm) so my experience there is limited.

I also really like Willbrook Plantation and The Witch -- both Dan Maples designs.

Getting back to Ellis, Grandfather and CCNC speak for themselves, but some of his less heralded designs (Keith Hills, Carlson Farms, Deep Springs, Sapona) have won many admirers in the NC/SC area.  None of those courses, however, have a high profile... so he hasn't received the acclaim outside of the region.

I did forget about CCNC being an Ellis design. Top notch work there for sure. I did think the 16th on the Dogwood was a little silly, but other than that, I felt it was a great course.

[Tim Gavrich]

I actually kind of liked The Pit.  There were some really interesting golf holes there (albeit surrounded by some mediocre ones).  I think of The Pit as Tobacco Road Lite... a controversial over-the-top design before that came back into fashion.  Of course, I've only played it once (partially through a driving rainstorm) so my experience there is limited.

I also really like Willbrook Plantation and The Witch -- both Dan Maples designs.

Getting back to Ellis, Grandfather and CCNC speak for themselves, but some of his less heralded designs (Keith Hills, Carlson Farms, Deep Springs, Sapona) have won many admirers in the NC/SC area.  None of those courses, however, have a high profile... so he hasn't received the acclaim outside of the region.

Jay--

The Witch and Willbrook are the two Maples courses around the Grand Strand that I know best.  The front nine at the Witch is very interesting with all the wooden bridges.  It has a Lowcountry-safari sort of feel since it's so spread out.  Of course, hardcore walking golfers would certainly be annoyed by it.  Willbrook is a very pleasant course despite being a fairly standard parkland-type layout.  I hope to play it in the next couple weeks and will take some pictures.

John--

Interesting thoughts on the Pit.  I've never played it myself but would like to someday, as it does seem, as Jay said, reminiscent of Tobacco Road.

[Jay Kirkpatrick]

just checked out dan maples website and i totally forgot about oyster bay... one of my favorites in myrtle beach and one heckuva deal.

does anyone know why maples doesn't seem to be doing any projects over the last 10 years?  is he out of the business?

[Ed Oden]

I believe I have played 8 Ellis Maples courses.  I can't say there is a bad one in the lot.  On the other hand, only Grandfather stands out as a top notch design.  In a strange way, for me Maples work serves more as a reminder of the incredibly high quality Donald Ross consistently achieved than anything else.  Maples courses seem to be scattered around in the same types of towns and remote locations as those designed by Ross.  Generally, they are solid members courses, but usually not much more.  Yet Ross consistently produced jewels under similar circumstances.  So when I play a place like Gaston CC (a perfectly nice Maples design), I often come away with a greater apprecation of Ross' work at courses like Mimosa Hills.  Is that screwed up?  Don't answer that.

Ed

[Bill_McBride]

Wasn't Ellis a builder and superintendent under Ross?

What's the mountain top resort course north of Charlottesville in Virginia that Ellis designed?  Tom Fazio did a valley course down below at the resort..........pretty interesting course by Maples with really wild greens.

[Tim Gavrich]

Bill--

Is it Wintergreen Resort that you're referring to?  I've never been there but have heard nice things about both courses.

[A.G._Crockett]

I've played a number of Dan Maples courses.  The Pearl West is one of my favorite courses anywhere, and I always save it for last on my yearly Myrtle Beach trip because the 18th is an eagle possibility if you can hit a hard hook off the tee.  I've never eagled it, despite LOTS of hard hooks off the tee, but I'll try it again later this month.

I've only played two Ellis Maples courses; Deep Springs and Forest Oaks in the Greensboro area.  Forest Oaks, of course, is the long-time site of the GGO and recently redone by the Love organization.  Both very, very good courses.

[Bill_McBride]

Bill--

Is it Wintergreen Resort that you're referring to?  I've never been there but have heard nice things about both courses.

That's it, Tim, thanks.  The mountain top Maples course is fun but death awaits off the fairways (literally in a couple of cases!) due to steep falling cliffsides.  The greens are wild, at least half with multiple tiers and a few dramatic false fronts.  It's definitely worth a look.

The Fazio course is lovely, in a valley with a brook running through it that is well used a couple of times.