Ogilvy Quote on American Courses & Kingston Heath

[Matthew Mollica]

"We play a lot of unbelieveable courses on the PGA Tour, but Kingston Heath would be far and away the best of the regular tournament courses - that's not including the Majors. The US Open has stunning courses, but overall, most of the American courses are nowhere near as good as Kingston Heath. Look, golf courses are very subjective. There are some great courses I don't particularly like because I struggle to play well there, and some bad courses I like because I always play well there. But if you polled all Tour players that have played Kingston Heath, most would say it is one of the best. Augusta National is a great course, but it's not that much better than Kingston Heath. Maybe just a little bit." - Geoff Ogilvy

Sound fair enough, or is it the thought of a biased Aussie who grew up on the sandbelt?

Matthew

[Mark_F]

That's a somewhat confusing statement, Matt.

They play a lot of unbelievable courses, yet KH is far and away the best of the regular tournament courses?

Presumably, if Augusta is maybe just a little bit better than KH, then Barnbougle is way better? 

[Pat Burke]

As a "yank" that learned to play (and loves) the course of the NJ/NY metro area,
I would say it is definitely NOT Aussie homering.
I was fortunate enough to play in OZ for a couple of different terms.
After my rookie season on the US Tour, I felt that the courses and condition of the courses on the Aus Tour were much better
that on the US Tour.
Kingston Heath and Royal Melbourne (composite) were staggering to me during my "rookie" year in Aus
I was lucky enough to play the "Heath" many times, and the best thing I can say is that I was always excited to start
and a little sad when the round ended.
I'll side with Geoff on this one!

[Mike_Clayton]

Kingston Heath is a great tournament course - but one significant difference between Australia and America is that places like KH relish the chance to hold tournaments because the club - a great one - has always felt a responsibility to the game - whether amateur or professional -  in Australia. They are happy to hold Australian Opens but also smaller tour events. They also have a really good 72 hole amateur event that is shared 36 holes each with Commonwealth
I suspect it is much different in America - where the majority of great courses are not interested in regular tour events - or even US Opens in some cases.
If the US tour played the best courses - as we used to do when we had a decent sized tour- it would be unbelievable.

[Tom_Doak]

Of course, Geoff is most comfortable playing the kind of Sand Belt course he grew up playing, so there's some bias in there.

But, what regular US Tour courses is he really dissing?  The only courses the Tour plays which have ever been considered "great" courses are Riviera, Colonial, Harbour Town, and the TPC at Sawgrass.  Kingston Heath is already rated higher in the world rankings than all of those.  (Oh, I guess they play 36 holes a year at Pebble Beach, too ... he probably wasn't counting that.)

[Warwick Loton]

I've just dug out an interview Geoff did a year ago, and he raved about various courses outside Melbourne (eg Oakmont, TOC).

Of the regular US tour courses, he put Riviera at the top, and thinks Colonial is good but would be much better if masses of trees were removed. He also rates PB & TPC Sawgrass, but pointed out that PB is played at the wrong time of the year (when it is too soft) and that he has serious issues with the set-up at Sawgrass.

Asked to list the best courses in the US, he named the following:
Cypress Point
Sand Hills
The National
Shinnecock
Pacific Dunes (there you go, Tom)
Crystal Downs
Seminole

Sounds like he just meant that KH is a top quality course, and that while the US has a number of top quality courses the US Tour doesn't regularly offer anything that plays to those high standards.

[Rich Goodale]

Methinks that Geoff is trying to force a quote rather than offer a thoughtful analysis.

Having played Kingston Heath recently, I agree that it is a superb golf course, and I very much look forward to watching Geoff and some other pros play it in competition later in the year.  If I were to compare it to American courses I have played, I thnk that it is very comparable in interest and quality to Prairie Dunes and SFGC, and might even be comparable to Cypress Point, if it only had an ocean shoreline.....

That being said, it is a relatively small course, and really not be compared to say Pebble Beach or even TPC-Sawgrass, each of which is as well-designed, but both of which have more physical and technical challenge to them.  IMHO, of course.

Rich

[Peter Pallotta]

Thanks, Warwick.

What an interesting list. In one sense, the choices aren't surprising; but it's striking that a great/tour-level player can seemingly appreciate (and presumably 'interface') with the architecture at those courses, despite the supposedly architecture-killing ability to drive the ball long, and straight, and high, and with spin, even out of the rough, and to get up and down from just about anywhere.  Maybe if you're really good, I mean really, really good, Seminole and Crystal Downs and Pacifc Dunes etc aren't too short after all....

Peter

[Adam Clayman]

The quote, as Rihc points out, lacks details. The next question that needs to be answered is why. Geoff admitting that how he plays affects his opinion is a red flag. But if someone, a nobody like myself were asked why, the proof is in the answer.

Since Geoff is becoming known as having a higher AQ (architectural quotient) than the average tour pro perhaps his quote is a diss on Muirfield Village after his closing performance there yesterday.

When was the quote taken?

Jack, on the tellie yesterday said he hated to see the guys struggle. It sounded ingenuous since he's tweaked that place to the point that caused them to struggle.

[Carl Nichols]

If I were asked to predict which tour pro younger than 40 years old will design the best golf courses in the future, I would pick Oglivy.  Tiger would be #2 -- even though he's a perfectionist, I also think he'll be spread too thin.

[Kevin Pallier]

MM

Glad to see Ogilvy plugging KH  - it's been what 10 years since the Aust. Open was last there ? Pity the pro's haven't played it more often ?

[Matthew Mollica]

Rich - when did you play Kingston Heath? Was I the only Melbournian who didn't know you were visiting?

Since Geoff is becoming known as having a higher AQ (architectural quotient) than the average tour pro perhaps his quote is a diss on Muirfield Village after his closing performance there yesterday.

When was the quote taken?

Adam, the comment must have been made weeks ago. I'm not sure eactly when.
It was printed in a local magazine in circulation the week prior to the Memorial.

MM

[Rich Goodale]

Matt

There were many more than 3,000,000 Melbournians who didn't know I was there.  The trip was a quick one and the focus was on contemplation rather than camaraderie.  Played KH on 20 April.  Did also get to watch the ANZAC Day Aussie Football match at MCC.  Talk about quirk!

Rich

[Matthew Mollica]

You've got to let us know when you're next here.

Glad you enjoyed the Anzac Day game. We like to think the MCG is one of the world's great stadia.
As an Essendon supporter (the winning black & red team), the annual April 25 fixture against Collingwood is a ritual.

MM

[Josh Stevens]

I wonder how KH would be regarded if it were in the US

I was a member there for some years and still play it a bit although i have moved away.  Design considerations aside, it is almost always the hardest, driest and fastest of the sandbelt courses .  So while it may perhaps be seen as rather small and pokey when compared to some of the big US boys (which it is), if presented at tournament firmness and the wind blows it can be terrifying.  It will be dry and hot, there will be none of that long lush grass, just wispy brown stuff and teatree, and the greens will have that slightly glassy look.  So while it is probably better than most US courses, it definatly different than anything they play during the year.

I dont think the average Amercian public player would really like it very much. It is small and pokey, in the middle of a rather ugly industrial area, no carts, no paths, no half way hut, the tea tree is imprenantrable, good shots bound over the back, you putt off the green a few times per round and the bunkers have only a wafer thin layer of dust in them.  Yes the design is good, but it is the design plus the conditioning that make it great - if it were plumped up it would lose something.

[Mark_F]

Matt

There were many more than 3,000,000 Melbournians who didn't know I was there. 

Hmm.  There's almost four million Melbournians, so that means there were approximately 500-700 thousand who did know you were coming?

[Rich Goodale]

Mark

"....almost four million Melbournians..." is equivalent to "many more than 3,000,000 Melbournians" in my book, but then again we Americans are used to thinking in big numbers.   MCG and the whole sporting complex near the center of Melbourne is very impressive.  No wonder you guys tend to punch above your weight, except when it comes to 20-20 cricket or other forms of baseball.....