News:

Welcome to the Golf Club Atlas Discussion Group!

Each user is approved by the Golf Club Atlas editorial staff. For any new inquiries, please contact us.


Jonathan Cummings

  • Karma: +0/-0
Just heard....
« on: May 09, 2009, 10:04:36 AM »
an architect friend of mine just told me the big three - Fazio, Palmer and Nicklaus - currently have exactly zero projects going on in the US.  Is that true??  Does anybody know differently?  He also said that all three have dramatically cut their staffs.

JC

Mike_Young

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Just heard....
« Reply #1 on: May 09, 2009, 10:08:18 AM »
I don't know but it is possible.
Question- if new design is decreasing as much as it seems....and even with this being a site that loves the ODG stuff.....do you think this site will remain as active with no new construc ;)tion going on..and nothing new to talk about?
"just standing on a corner in Winslow Arizona"

Matt Varney

Re: Just heard....
« Reply #2 on: May 09, 2009, 10:16:44 AM »
If this is true this tells me one thing -

Real estate golf development has hit rock bottom nationwide if Fazio, Palmer, Nicklaus have zero projects on the board.  If you do some digging you will see that C&C, Doak, The Dye's, Lester George, Tom Lehman and Graham Marsh are all busy wokring on projects right now.  This is a sign of the times we are living in with this economy and the ability to get financing for any type of golf club / real estate development project.

 

Garland Bayley

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Just heard....
« Reply #3 on: May 09, 2009, 10:29:27 AM »
Do you suppose we've criticized Fazio, Nicklaus, and Palmer so much, that only non-English speaking countries are hiring them?
 :o
"I enjoy a course where the challenges are contained WITHIN it, and recovery is part of the game  not a course where the challenge is to stay ON it." Jeff Warne

Kyle Harris

Re: Just heard....
« Reply #4 on: May 09, 2009, 10:45:13 AM »
Do you suppose we've criticized Fazio, Nicklaus, and Palmer so much, that only non-English speaking countries are hiring them?
 :o

I'll start the non-English.

ˇFazio es el diablo!

Jeff_Brauer

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Just heard....
« Reply #5 on: May 09, 2009, 10:53:48 AM »
I had heard about the layoffs and was recently surprised to see Tom Marzolf at ASGCA meeting.  When I went to console him on losing his job (based on rumor) he said he was still gainfully employed but that Fazio had cut his staff by approximately half, with a few older staffers simply retiring.  Given the type of man TF is, that it was extremely painful to do.  TM also said he was in charge of two under construction 18 hole courses.  

No one from Palmer mentioned any layoffs (but didn't mention any new US courses either) and I didn't talk with any of the members of JN's office who were there. Similarly, I heard Rees has avoided layoffs and has one project right now for each associate keeping them busy.

We had strong attendance at the ASGCA meeting and most members reported having at least some work. I personally only know of three new US courses in active design (as opposed to just finishing construction on a project started before the meltdown) - mine in Kansas, Mike D's in Austin, TX, and a Ken Dye course in Arkansas.   I suspect that there are at least one or two more for each course I know of, but in a collection of over 80 architects, I didn't hear of any. Even so, from 600 to 6 in ten years time.  OUCH! 
Jeff Brauer, ASGCA Director of Outreach

Chris DeNigris

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Just heard....
« Reply #6 on: May 09, 2009, 11:25:41 AM »
I know this has probably been discussed a lot before, but where is equilibrium?

With so many great new courses having been built in the US in the last 15 years how much sustained growth was anticipated in the next 15-20 years, the current economic situation notwithstanding?

Chris

Jeff_Brauer

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Just heard....
« Reply #7 on: May 09, 2009, 11:37:02 AM »
Chris,

In my 32 years in the business, as near as I can tell, the big development booms coincide with the great economic times and occur about every 30-35 years (1890, 1920, 1950, 1980) So, hopefully 2010 will start something big!  In reality, if the big booms occur every 35 years, there is a little mini boom every 7 or so with the rest of the time being about average.

World events obviously messes up the perfect timetable, but historically, the golf participation rate stays at about 10-12%, so as population grows the need for golf courses grows generally.  If there are 16,000 courses, and population increases 1-2% a year, we probably need 160-320 courses a year on average. You can argue that with the broader choices available, and with some of the growth coming from immigration from countries that have no golf history that the basic number should be cut in half to 80-160 new courses a year.  You also have to figure in the trend of course closings as urban land becomes too valuble and golf courses sell off and the trend to more convenience - i.e. courses in the subdivsions where you live - not to mention the probable aging of the golf population. 

Long way of saying, I really don't know. I doubt anyone really does.  And, it will be up to developers to decide.  In a down market, there may still be new active retirement communities being built that want golf courses, abeit, perhaps not championship courses.
Jeff Brauer, ASGCA Director of Outreach

Adam Clayman

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Just heard....
« Reply #8 on: May 09, 2009, 12:04:25 PM »
There seem to many dynamics as to why the big budget project in the U.S. is mostly dead. Perhaps some third owner could contribute their opinions?

I'm looking forward to a future design world of boutiques that are more artistic, more cost realistic and random like nature.. The Dave and Dan model if you will. I'll even speculate that one original poster. formerly of Steel fame, will emerge as a wild talent pushing envelopes only dreamt of in the halcyon days of the original Site Suite archives on this site.
"It's unbelievable how much you don't know about the game you've been playing your whole life." - Mickey Mantle

Bill_McBride

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Just heard....
« Reply #9 on: May 09, 2009, 12:08:46 PM »
There seem to many dynamics as to why the big budget project in the U.S. is mostly dead. Perhaps some third owner could contribute their opinions?

I'm looking forward to a future design world of boutiques that are more artistic, more cost realistic and random like nature.. The Dave and Dan model if you will. I'll even speculate that one original poster. formerly of Steel fame, will emerge as a wild talent pushing envelopes only dreamt of in the halcyon days of the original Site Suite archives on this site.

Slagbert is one of the few people I know who has gone through the fire and emerged doing what he wanted to do and loves to do. 
What a guy!  ;D 8)

Chris DeNigris

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Just heard....
« Reply #10 on: May 09, 2009, 12:12:28 PM »
Thanks Jeff,

Appreciate the insight. I know we've gone thru these cycles before but just wondering if there are some unique circumstances that might shape the golf future here for awhile..

Did the Tiger effect cause a building surge that will have to market correct over the next 10-15 years?

Are the demographics with US population growth expected to correlate to more rounds played?

Are more private clubs going public or semi-private and how will that affect the upscale daily-fee market?

If it's remotely close to a zero-sum situation, how many courses will be folding to create opportunity for new growth?

And what courses will be going away?  I know it's complicated, but I guess it's not always survival of the fittest. Seems like a lot of marginal tracks with lower operating costs might be able to survive and even thrive because of the market they're in. While some much better and much better run courses will struggle and have to go away.

I guess we'd all love to see a continuation of the recent past where every year there seemed to be a great new course available to play somewhere closeby- and where eventually all the available courses would be 4 star treats for $50...but I suppose that's just my fantasy...

Chris

Carl Nichols

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Just heard....
« Reply #11 on: May 10, 2009, 07:46:39 AM »
Don't want to disrupt the thread, but is Palmer really part of a "big 3" with Nicklaus and Fazio? 

Jeff_Brauer

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Just heard....
« Reply #12 on: May 10, 2009, 08:23:32 AM »
Chris,

So many questions!  No one really knows if we baby boomers or the next generations will act like our parents acted.  We have more recreations options, we will likely be poorer in retirment as boomers, our kids may have less wealth (although I doubt that long term - hey, no one thought our generation was worth a crap when we were teens, either!), but they will sure have slightly different values. IF we react like our parents, golf should get slightly stronger as the boomers age and retire, but golf will really need to be affordable in most cases.

I don't think Tiger had as big an effect on the construction boom as an NGF study that showed we needed a cousre a day for ten years (which boosted construction from 250 a year way past 365 to 400-500 a few years) in convincing develpers to build new courses.  Add in a well funded real estate trust that was paying top dollar to buy courses in the late 90's, which raised the price of buying so high it was cheaper to build, and the great economy of that period which temporarily filled the courses. I kind of knew it was a bubble when the golf mags were posting stock quotes for golf companies each month, kind of like JP Morgan getting out of the market when a shoe shine boy gave him a stock tip!

The trend to making more courses public has been going on for 50 years. It won't stop.

I haven't seen the latest stats, but the courses going under recently tended to be the mom and pop rural courses. I don't think its cost totally, its location, location, location.  Probably the next biggest group was courses near the inner city that could recently make their owners more money being sold as real estate than as golf.  Upscale courses probably won't go out of business - they will get sold at a loss/great price and reposition themselves as mid level courses.  (Or as standards rise, the mid level will come up to where they are)  But, those trends aren't new either.  Only in a great economy will most golfers pay for service, flower beds, perfect maintenance, etc. (except for perhaps a select few courses) For most, it will always be price and convenience.

The trend to closing has slowed down this year.  The peak was the last two years. I forget the exact numbers but it was about 75 courses last year and over 100 the year before.  Not really that many out of 16,000 golf courses, really less than 0.5-0.75%.

I like to think golf has been going strong since 1450 or so and its fundamentals are strong, so it will keep going. Hopefully, this is a bump in the road, but like you, I sense it will also cause a paradigm shift that many here would like - lower cost, less perfect maintenance, etc.  The only thing people won't like is that the architecture at most places will suffer a bit, but probably not as badly as it did in the 30's and 70's oil crisis - people are just too aware of the gca now to gut a course completely in the name of maintenance and standards have gone up, since golfers will remember what it was like to have a nicely designed upscale course.

As always, my crystal ball could be cloudy.
Jeff Brauer, ASGCA Director of Outreach

RJ_Daley

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Just heard....
« Reply #13 on: May 10, 2009, 01:30:04 PM »
Jeff B and Mike Y, what do you guys think of the prospect that more courses will be on reclaimed land from petered out quarries or capped land fills or other such wasteland.  Do the engineering costs to safely build such courses overwhelm the idea of affordability for a larger segment of a golfing consumer public? 

Is Beechtree in Maryland a sign of things to come?

No actual golf rounds were ruined or delayed, nor golf rules broken, in the taking of any photographs that may be displayed by the above forum user.

Bruce Wellmon

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Just heard....
« Reply #14 on: May 10, 2009, 02:48:39 PM »
Palmer has nine holes finished at White Oak near Tryon, NC. Nine holes yet to finish. SubAir greens. Real Nice.
Padraig is sponsored by White Oak. He is to build there.

Greg Tallman

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Just heard....
« Reply #15 on: May 10, 2009, 05:13:35 PM »
an architect friend of mine just told me the big three - Fazio, Palmer and Nicklaus - currently have exactly zero projects going on in the US.  Is that true??  Does anybody know differently?  He also said that all three have dramatically cut their staffs.

JC

Some serious cutbacks took place as long as 7 months ago. Some are in the form of layoffs some in the form a restructured relationship between the name and the talent.

ChipRoyce

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Just heard....
« Reply #16 on: May 10, 2009, 05:48:32 PM »
mine in Kansas, Mike D's in Austin, TX, and a Ken Dye course in Arkansas.

jeff-
Curious as a former Austinite - what is the project in Austin?
Surprised any new courses going in at the moment
Thanks!
Chip

Adam Jeselnick

Re: Just heard....
« Reply #17 on: May 11, 2009, 11:28:00 PM »
In Palmer's magazine  (Kingdom) it mentions several design projects... including Seven Falls (NC), Lake Keowee (SC), and a new course for NC State in Raleigh.

-AJ


Michael Dugger

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Just heard....
« Reply #18 on: May 11, 2009, 11:47:34 PM »
mine in Kansas, Mike D's in Austin, TX, and a Ken Dye course in Arkansas.

jeff-
Curious as a former Austinite - what is the project in Austin?
Surprised any new courses going in at the moment
Thanks!
Chip


It's the El Boqueron job.  Devries has been asked to interpret the Old Mackenzie plans which were found underneath a layer of dust a couple years ago.

Facinating story.  There was an article in one of the Golf magazines a little while back.

Looking forward to seeing this one!!!
What does it matter if the poor player can putt all the way from tee to green, provided that he has to zigzag so frequently that he takes six or seven putts to reach it?     --Alistair Mackenzie--

Norbert P

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Just heard.... New
« Reply #19 on: May 12, 2009, 12:17:11 AM »
El Boqueron routing and illustrations . . .

http://out-and-back.net/?p=186

There's also a terrific thread here about it but I can't find it. I believe Tom Dunne started the thread.

« Last Edit: May 12, 2009, 12:24:36 AM by Slag Bandoon »
"Golf is only meant to be a small part of one’s life, centering around health, relaxation and having fun with friends/family." R"C"M

Tags:
Tags:

An Error Has Occurred!

Call to undefined function theme_linktree()
Back