[Chuck Brown]

In honor of TPC-Sawgrass, a strong contender for the honor, I wonder what is really the short list of the best courses built on the most inhospitable property for golf?

Five nominees besides Sawgrass:

Shadow Creek
Yale
Lost Dunes  (Tom Doak might not think that the landforms were so inhospitable)
The entire Phoenix/Scottsdale metroplex
PGA West Nicklaus Private

I'm thinking that the GCA membership can come up with some even better nominees.

[Adam_Messix]

I have a feeling that Tom Doak might say the most difficult piece of property he had to work with was Stone Eagle.  Whether you like the course, love it, or loathe it; that course is a true achievement.  Personally, I had a great time and enjoyed SE very much and it's an incredible location for lunch or dinner. 

Mountaintop would be on the short list too. 

Chuck, I was surprised to see Lost Dunes on your list, is it mainly because of the highway bisecting the property?

[Andy Troeger]

TPC Sawgrass would likely be the winner in my book--to go from a flat swamp to what is currently there deserves significant credit.

I wouldn't include Lost Dunes. Its not the best site in the world especially for routing 18 holes, but there's some strong positives with the sandy areas and enough contour to be interesting.

There's some pretty cool areas in Phoenix/Scottsdale. The flattish area around Talking Stick would be appropriate, but areas in North Scottsdale have a lot of movement and have led to some pretty interesting courses. The property for We-Ko-Pa Saguaro was especially good in that it was rolling without being abrupt.

Calusa Pines is another course that was entirely build from a flat piece of property.

[cary lichtenstein]

The quarry at giants ridge

Tobacco Road

Both are wonderful courses on what could have been disasterous pieces of property

Whistling Straits was an airport-totally man made

[Steve Salmen]

I played Cascata last year.  It seemed the course was built out of the side of a hillside.  Though I did not particularly care for the course, I did think it was incredible that one could be built there.

[Mark Pearce]

If TPC is allowed, then how about Kingsbarns?

[Matt_Cohn]

A featureless property and a gigantic budget is not a bad piece of property. In the sense that Fazio had an unlimited budget, Shadow Creek was a perfect piece of property because it presented zero limitations. Ditto Sawgrass to some extent - what natural limitations were placed on what Dye could do?

[Carl Rogers]

I think the intial site of the Rawls Course was not much.

[Tom_Doak]

Chuck:

Since the construction budget for Lost Dunes was $2.3 million, I don't think you could claim that site was "inhospitable for golf," or at least I surely wouldn't.  The Rawls Course is the worst site we've had, but I'm not complaining there, either ... I agree with Matt's take on the budget being able to fix a lot.

My vote would go to whatever is the best course of those built in Japan in the 1980's.  Or I might nominate Kawana (Fuji) which was hewn from lava rock in the 1930's.

[Phil_the_Author]

One that must be given strong consideration is Aldecress, what is known today as the Alpine CC. This is what tilly said about the project:

"Among the hundreds of golf courses that I have designed and constructed, Aldecress (which is most exclusive and never seen by but a favored few) was by far the toughest course to build that I ever encountered."

The reason? The course was built in and through a combination of dense forest, swamp and in an area filled with massive stone outcroppings and buried stone. During a good portion of the project they had more than 20 tractors removing the stone daily. There was so much of it that they began grinding it up on site and used it as a base to the fairways.

[Michael Dugger]

"worst" can mean a lot of things.

Most inhospitable setting for building a golf course would have to include Lido, TPC Sawgrass, Yale, Cascata, Old Marsh.....Chambers Bay has proven no cup of tea.  Somewhere where a lot of dynamite was necessary perhaps.  Pete Dye Golf Club comes to mind....
desert courses....

Then I think "worst" would include something along the lines of a golf course shoehorned between a freeway and garbage dump!  Something with a really lame aesthetic, like within a large metropolis or somethin'...

 

[Ben Sims]

Are we talking about the hardest piece of land to work with or are we relegating this thread to just flat and featureless land?  I HAVE to nominate Stone Eagle for worst land for golf and best outcome of product.  The decision to route up and down the mountain instead of blasting into the side to make fairways was smart.  Hanging the greens around arroyos and using bunkering to fade into extremely rocky and unsightly ground work well too.  I think Eric Iverson must have gotten a degree in explosive ordnance after seeing the finished product on a steep and rocky site.

If we are talking flat and featureless ground, well, just about any course of interest in the midwest flatlands or the swamps of Florida can be nominated.  Rawls, TPC Sawgrass, etc, et al.  There are many good courses on this type of ground.

[Kirk Gill]

Then I think "worst" would include something along the lines of a golf course shoehorned between a freeway and garbage dump!  Something with a really lame aesthetic, like within a large metropolis or somethin'...
 

I nominate Fossil Trace golf course in Golden, Co. Small, hilly property, partly a former clay mine, with a juvenile detention center smack in the middle. Some wetlands, some fossils that had to be preserved..........Engh did a good job. Some of the holes suffer from being shoehorned in, but overall he pulled it off.

[Kalen Braley]

If we're talking about epic achievements on a sever piece of land, Sanctaury should be considered.  Its such a massively hilly site and to get that many good holes in there seems to be a terrific effort even if the course is completely unwalkable.

[Glenn Spencer]

Not an architect, but I can't imagine anybody having less to work with than Ross did at Miami Valley Golf Club in Dayton, Ohio.

[Steve Lapper]

Reading the above nominees and thinking about what went into them, only one course stands out as the clear winner. It was built on a property with absolutely ZERO natural land form concussive to golf (unlike the desert of a Shadow Creek or the gully shoulders of a Stone Eagle). It lacked the natural elevation (small cliffs) of a Whistling Straits and required 100% imagination from it's designer. Had it's architect possessed  the name-brand recognition of a more famous GCA, I believe it would see it's ranking even higher among all the rag-raters we debate so feverishly.

It is Bayonne Golf Club.....built essentially on an old harbor-side garbage site. Nothing was in place to either suggest or encourage golf and other then the fill taken from the adjacent harbor not a single natural feature contributed to such a fun and challenging venue to tee it up at!

[Dan Smoot]

Reading the above nominees and thinking about what went into them, only one course stands out as the clear winner. It was built on a property with absolutely ZERO natural land form concussive to golf (unlike the desert of a Shadow Creek or the gully shoulders of a Stone Eagle). It lacked the natural elevation (small cliffs) of a Whistling Straits and required 100% imagination from it's designer. Had it's architect possessed  the name-brand recognition of a more famous GCA, I believe it would see it's ranking even higher among all the rag-raters we debate so feverishly.

It is Bayonne Golf Club.....built essentially on an old harbor-side garbage site. Nothing was in place to either suggest or encourage golf and other then the fill taken from the adjacent harbor not a single natural feature contributed to such a fun and challenging venue to tee it up at!

I still say the old Lubbock flat cotton field which is now Rawls meets all your description, less the garbage.

[Greg Tallman]

While I have never been to the course many, most notably the architect, rave about the final product at Seven Canyons in Sedona, AZ in given the constraints presented by the site itself.

[Andy Troeger]

Seven Canyons is an interesting one to note. The area is absolutely stunning but the parcel for the course was evidently very small. To be honest, the course feels rather cramped--I'm not sure was much Weiskopf could have done differently but I think the course is more memorable for the setting than the design.

[David Kelly]

I've always thought that Hanse did a good job with French Creek.  It wasn't a bad piece of property, just one with a number of challenges. Part wetlands and part rocky outcroppings, the only negative aspect of the routing is the gap between 3 and 4 but other than that a very walkable course.

[mike_beene]

Plantation Course.It is two walking bridges short of greatness.

[archie_struthers]

 

Shadow Creek would have to be high on the list of nominees for this one.  Although some might eschew the massive earthmoving, the site was pretty devoid of features that an architect could work with, save the distant vistas.  Budget notwithstanding , it's a pretty notable achievemnt and broke new ground , literally !

Although some notable achievements that are similar to Shadow Creek have been noted , namely Bayonne, Eric Bergstol had the water to work with, an obviuos advantage to the Vegas site Fazio had.  From all accounts the Bayonne course is really well done, and a tribute to Eric's ingenuity and dogged determination to get it built. To his credit, he knew early on what a great opportunity the site
offered
Without going into engineering challenges  soil types , rock removal,  or dredging ( Indian Creek) and just concentratin on HO hum land , Shadow Creek is hard to beat from inception to finish.       

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