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Jeff_Mingay

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Classic quote... from 1964!
« on: July 17, 2009, 05:00:31 PM »
Doing some research for a couple projects I'm working on, I ran across a fascinating quote from notes written by Vernon Macan. These notes accompanied a clay model of the 12th green he designed at San Geronimo in northern California, and are signed "A. Vernon Macan, Golf Course Architect May 1964".

Macan notes: "This green is located on a downslope viz; with the shot so that the green would not hold a normal shot."

Classic... green located on a downslope; SO IT WILL NOT HOLD A NORMAL SHOT!

Anyone know anything about the 12th green at San Geronimo? Unfortunately, I'm thinking it's been rebuild since Macan's day  ;D
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Tom Huckaby

Re: Classic quote... from 1964!
« Reply #1 on: July 17, 2009, 05:09:17 PM »
 ???

The current #12 sure doesn't fit that description, nor does the current #3.  I believe the two nines were built several years apart from each other (not sure which was first to be honest), so it could be either hole... but that description does not apply to either.

I have to guess Macan's green was indeed toned down, if it was ever built at all.  What's there now at each of these holes is not extraordinary in any way.

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DMoriarty

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Re: Classic quote... from 1964!
« Reply #2 on: July 17, 2009, 05:10:22 PM »
I know nothing about the course, but the more I learn about Macan the more I like him.  

1964?  He was feisty for an octogenarian.
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Golf history can be quite interesting if you just let your favorite legends go and allow the truth to take you where it will.
--Tom MacWood (1958-2012)

David_Tepper

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Re: Classic quote... from 1964!
« Reply #3 on: July 17, 2009, 05:13:06 PM »
Jeff -

I last played San Geronimo a few weekends ago. I think San Geronimo is a very underrated, overlooked course.

The 2nd shot into the #12 (a 400 yard-ish par 4) green is a downhill shot, but the current green (which has to be a least 20-25 years old) is certainly not sloped down from front to back. It is a much flatter green than #11, #13 & #14, which are all sharply sloped upwards from the front to the back.

Do you actually have the model of the green or did you just see a picture of the model?

DT    
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Jeff_Mingay

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Re: Classic quote... from 1964!
« Reply #4 on: July 17, 2009, 05:16:27 PM »
Macan was indeed feisty, until the end!

He was very opinionated. But I'm confident 95% of participants at this web site discussion group would agree with his opinions on golf and course architecture!

Sadly, so much of his original works are gone. Delving into Macan's design philosophy then looking at his courses as they exist today, as I have, is really disheartening.

David,

I don't have the model or a photo of it; just Macan's notes which apparently accompanied the model.
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David_Tepper

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Re: Classic quote... from 1964!
« Reply #5 on: July 17, 2009, 05:24:34 PM »
Jeff -

I don't know how many other courses Macan did in the SF Bay Area or elsewhere in Northern California. I would not promise that San Geronimo is worth a trip out here just to see that course. But since there are plenty of other courses worth seeing here (the Meadow Club is about 10 miles away from San G.) that should not be a concern.

DT 
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Tim Gavrich

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Re: Classic quote... from 1964!
« Reply #6 on: July 17, 2009, 06:00:32 PM »
Someone should tell the people at American Golf that San Geronimo was designed by Vernon Macan, not some impostor named "Vernon McKahn."

There are typos and then there are typos... ::)
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Steve_ Shaffer

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Re: Classic quote... from 1964!
« Reply #7 on: July 17, 2009, 09:27:30 PM »
Re: San Geronimo GC

"This beautiful course is well maintained. The front nine is flat and open, while the hilly back nine is situated in a valley. Water hazards come into play several times. One of the most spectacular holes is #10, a 516-yard, par 5, requiring a shot from off an elevated tee up a dogleg left fairway with woods lining the left side. Robert Muir Graves redesigned the course in 1989, followed by Robin Nelson and Randy Wright in 1991."
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"Some of us worship in churches, some in synagogues, some on golf courses ... "  Adlai Stevenson
Hyman Roth to Michael Corleone: "We're bigger than US Steel."
Ben Hogan “The most important shot in golf is the next one”

Dale Jackson

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Re: Classic quote... from 1964!
« Reply #8 on: July 17, 2009, 11:46:55 PM »
Jeff, I am not surprised Macan would build the front to back type of green at San Geronimo, as you know, he was a great proponent of that type of green.

Even less surprising is the fact it was done away with, that type of design drives the professionals crazy, as Macan acknowledged.

I have been threatening to go on a Macan trip down the coast, this may just tip my hand.

BTW, and OT - any chance you will be at Glen Abbey?
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I've seen an architecture, something new, that has been in my mind for years and I am glad to see a man with A.V. Macan's ability to bring it out. - Gene Sarazen

David_Tepper

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Re: Classic quote... from 1964!
« Reply #9 on: July 18, 2009, 12:34:19 AM »
Steve Shaffer -

I don't know your source for the comment that the front-9 at San G. is "flat and open." That is not quite the case. There is water very much in play on 3 of those 9 holes and OB in play on 3 other holes. The front-9 is flatter than the back-9.

If anyone does decide to visit the Bay Area to play San Geronimo, please let me know. Thanks.

DT
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Patrick Kiser

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Re: Classic quote... from 1964!
« Reply #10 on: July 18, 2009, 08:47:49 AM »
Quote from: David_Tepper on July 17, 2009, 05:24:34 PM
... I don't know how many other courses Macan did in the SF Bay Area or elsewhere in Northern California...

DT 


David,

You'd be quite surprised.  Sean Tully showed me some stuff and he had his fingers into all kinds of pies ... I mean courses.  And in some places you never would have thought.

Paging Sean...

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“One natural hazard, however, which is more
or less of a nuisance, is water. Water hazards
absolutely prohibit the recovery shot, perhaps
the best shot in the game.” —William Flynn, golf
course architect

Steve_ Shaffer

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Re: Classic quote... from 1964!
« Reply #11 on: July 18, 2009, 08:59:05 AM »
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"Some of us worship in churches, some in synagogues, some on golf courses ... "  Adlai Stevenson
Hyman Roth to Michael Corleone: "We're bigger than US Steel."
Ben Hogan “The most important shot in golf is the next one”

Jeff_Mingay

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Re: Classic quote... from 1964!
« Reply #12 on: July 18, 2009, 04:11:22 PM »
Dale,

I won't be at Glen Abbey. I'll be here, in the Maritimes, working!
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Rob Rigg

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Re: Classic quote... from 1964!
« Reply #13 on: July 19, 2009, 02:08:28 AM »
Not sure how much Macan is left at Columbia-Edgewater, but I had a chance to play it today (my first Macan) and thoroughly enjoyed the routing and the natural undulations of the fairways. I hope to see some of his work up in BC one of these days - everything I read about AVMs philosophy is very interesting. Seems like he was a wonderful character and sharp thinker.

The military background obviously had an effect on MacKenzie's GCA philosophy, ie - camo, did Macan bring any military strategy to his designs?
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Jeff_Mingay

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Re: Classic quote... from 1964!
« Reply #14 on: July 19, 2009, 07:27:58 AM »
Rob,

My brother used to caddie on the LPGA Tour, visiting Columbia-Edgewater annually. He always spoke highly of the course. I think Macan's routing there is still basically intact; but, I understand much of everything else - greens, bunkers - has been redone.

Haven't come across Macan speaking of military camo. or strategies.
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