Seeking architectural education from the horse's mouth

[Ben Sims]

I am heading down to Stone Eagle to play a guest round with Mr. Peter Ferlicca this Monday.  I would like to ask the collective, what should I be looking for in the architecture?  It will be my first experience there, but any advance knowledge on how to look for certain features that I wouldn't normally see would be greatly appreciated.

I know a few of you are members or have worked on the site itself and it would be a unique opportunity to get that type of discussion from "the horse's mouth"

Also, I'm headed down to We-ko-pa Saguaro on Tuesday and would like to get some advance intelligence on that layout as well.

The Bodega Harbour review will be forthcoming on another thread to answer your questions about it's "renovation"

[Tom_Doak]

Ben:

One of the things I dislike about designing new courses is being interviewed all the time about them and about "what people should look for."

One of the things I like most about designing new courses is doing my best to draw certain things to attention visually, and to hide others.  And of course all that is pointless if I explain it all to you in advance.  I'd be much more interested to hear YOUR thoughts on the golf course as a first-time visitor, and then answer your questions about why/how it came to be that way.  (Of course, you'll be playing with someone who knows the course very well, so you'll already be indoctrinated a bit anyway.)

Just be sure to watch your ball fly off that first tee ... it might be the most stunning visual on any course I've had anything to do with.

[Michael Dugger]

Ben,

I say pay attention to what makes it different than every other desert course in the world....

[Jerry Kluger]

Ben: I wouldn't be looking for unique features but I would be looking at how certain design features are presented to the golfer.  Strategy off the tee and angles to the green are extremely important and Stone Eagle can present some very interesting features/challenges when approaching a green.  Look at the green complexes and the challenges posed by the many different types of recovery shots.  Once you arrive at the first green you will realize how much fun you can have playing to various hole locations and what the green contours will do to your ball.  Stone Eagle is beautiful but it is also fun and challenging.

[George Pazin]

Please pick up Huck's dad on the way so we can resolve a few outstanding bets...

[Tom Huckaby]

Please pick up Huck's dad on the way so we can resolve a few outstanding bets...

George:

Not necessary, my friend.  And it bums me out a little that you of all people would (a) dredge this back up after all this time, especially as it was FINALLY resolved between me and those most critical of me; and (b) seemingly misrepresent again what my position was, as so many others did at that time.

My Dad would have a blast at Stone Eagle.  I really never stated otherwise. When challenged by some mis-stating or misunderstanding my one small critique of the course, I may have blasted back too hard.  But I never ever meant to say anyone would not enjoy playing this fine golf course.

That being said, my Dad would love to play another private club as that would make two in his life.  He hates heat though.  Wait until October.

 

[George Pazin]

Just having a little fun on a Friday afternooon...no ill intent.

[Tom Huckaby]

Just having a little fun on a Friday afternooon...no ill intent.

Yeah, well.. "a little fun" like this damn well better not lead to me getting a new ass torn about this AGAIN.. or I shall hunt you down and it will not be a happy fate for either of us.

 

Ben - screw architecture - hit the shots, have fun and make sure and sample the tacos, and play the 19th hole.

[John Kirk]

I think I suggested to Ben that he play the 9th hole from the original back tee behind the 8th green, and not to let Peter F. have him play a shortened "walking" version of the course.  They are walking, so he should play the 7th from just short of the 6th green.  Or play two balls and play it both ways.

It's supposed to be 93 degrees on Monday.  Drink lots of water.  The taco bar is probably closed on Monday.

[Ben Sims]

Mr. Doak,

I didn't mean for my request to stick in your proverbial craw.  However, I do understand and respect why you said it the way you did.  I seem to remember an interview you did with Dave and Dave from Chicago last fall just off the 5th green at Old Mac.  When the interviewer asked something along the lines of "how should the golfer react to...", well, now I get it. 

Anyway, I'll do as you ask and take mental notes where necessary.  I'll report back with a full debrief next week.  With a few questions to ask you I'm sure.

Mr. Pazin and Mr. Huckaby,

As for Huck's dad...I have just been privy to THAT little bit of GCA history via search function.  Between fits of guffaw and tears, I tried to hang with his point.  One question, did Huck's dad ever take Mr. Doak up on his offer?  It seemed to be generous and authentic.  Then again, that was a long time ago.

[Sean Leary]

Please pick up Huck's dad on the way so we can resolve a few outstanding bets...

George:

Not necessary, my friend.  And it bums me out a little that you of all people would (a) dredge this back up after all this time, especially as it was FINALLY resolved between me and those most critical of me; and (b) seemingly misrepresent again what my position was, as so many others did at that time.

My Dad would have a blast at Stone Eagle.  I really never stated otherwise. When challenged by some mis-stating or misunderstanding my one small critique of the course, I may have blasted back too hard.  But I never ever meant to say anyone would not enjoy playing this fine golf course.

That being said, my Dad would love to play another private club as that would make two in his life.  He hates heat though.  Wait until October.

 

TH,

I think your dad should stop after the one private he has played.

He can only go down from there.

[Tom Huckaby]

Sean - fantastically perfect point.  For others, my Dad has played exactly one private course in his life:  Cypress Point.

Ben - while it was a nice offer from Tom... as I believe I stated at the time, my Dad doesn't get around much, hates the heat, and is quite the curmudgeon when it comes to getting out for social events, particularly without a family member in tow (as much as I love him).  So especially since the chances of ME getting back to the desert are pretty slim and fat...the thought of him doing that was never very realistic.

I do appreciate you trying to hang with my point, however. I just hope you got what said point really was.  Few did at the time.... you're only reading the public parts....

TH

[Carl Nichols]

Tom:
If your chances are slim and fat, then maybe you'll get there....!

[Ben Sims]

I wanted to continue this thread as soon as the site got back up.

The move to Texas is complete and I was privileged enough to ply two amazing courses on the way down.  Stone Eagle and We-Ko-Pa Saguaro.  Let me begin by saying that Mr. Rick Downes and Mr. Peter Ferlicca were some of the most accomodating hosts I've ever encountered. 

Stone Eagle was simply surreal in its setting and appearance.  Peter pointed out several things I wouldn't have normally noticed on a first trip to a course such as the "Doak" tees on the fringes of many greens.  I've never played a course with as many cross country options as SE except for Sheep Ranch.  The most significant feature I noticed was playability and recovery.  Renaissance paid more than lip service to this feature.  On 17 I nutted a drive right up the chute from the back tees and had 230 left.  I fully hooked a hybrid 25 yards left of the green and thought it was dead.  I walked up to find my ball safely resting about 15 yards below the 15th green.  This story repeated itself many times on poor shots. 

Some holes of great merit were 2, 4, 14, 16.  All of these holes have ridiculously strategic shot values and fun greens.  Some of the cross country holes that Peter showed me was 6 green to 7 green, MacKenzie tee on 9.  I think I may have came up with one myself and I'd love to get some feedback on it.  9 green to 4 green.  Short par 4 with blind landing on tee shot. 

Some architectural elements I noticed was the mounding short and left of 2 green, fairway bunker on 7 that only affects tee shots from down at the 6 green, stair-step bunkering on 13 green-side slope, green-side bunker on 16 that fades back down the hill into native vegetation. 

I could gush on and on about this course.  The conditioning was probably the best I've ever played.  The service was spectacular.  The architecture was fun and engaging.  I wanted to play 19 more second I finished.  I can't fathom why the other two private layouts that Renaissance did in the same timeframe (Ballyneal, Sebonack) are both ranked courses and Stone eagle hasn't gotten the same recognition.

Alright, let me know what you think.  I'll post a separately for my review of We-Ko-Pa Saguaro.  It is a testament to C&C that  I would put it beside Stone eagle in terms of playability and fun.  But that's for another time. 

[Tim Bert]

Huck - I thought your dad played Rivera when you were 12?!?   

On my 12th birthday my Dad surprised me with a round at Riviera.  I was excited for the golf, but rather awed when our playing partners were Errol Flynn and Dolly Parton. 

On my 21st birthday my college friends arranged for a round at Olympic Club with Tom Watson and Porky Pig.  Porky was hard to understand but man that pig could putt.  Watson chipped in on 17 and I nearly wrapped a wedge around his head.

On my 30th birthday, my wife set me up to play Cypress Point with Colonel Sanders and J. Paul Getty.  Being there with two fifths of the Pentavirate rattled my nerves, that's for sure.  But you no longer need to wonder why certain world events happened in 1993.  They were all my idea.

On my 40th birthday I played MPCC with Bob Huntley and the Dalai Lama.  The Lama proved to be not all long after all.  It was also quite fun to make the guy pay for something with real money for once in his life as he joined me in getting my ass kicked in the Wolf game.

These were all great times.  Thanks for the chance to stroll down memory lane, Jay.

TH

ps - I don't think I ever really have never played golf on my birthday...

[Emil Weber]

Searching on the iNet for Stone Eagle, I found some sources that say you can play it for 130 $ and some say it's completely private. What's true? Is it accessible for public?

[Michael Dugger]

Searching on the iNet for Stone Eagle, I found some sources that say you can play it for 130 $ and some say it's completely private. What's true? Is it accessible for public?

'Tis indeed private.  Must play with a member to get the $130ish price.

Otherwise, to play unaccompanied, the price goes up (doubles)  In this situation you still need to be "sponsored" by a member

There is no rolling up to the front door and getting on.  They do seem pretty accomodating to reciprocal play, meaning if you are a member of a club in your hometown they'll welcome you in.