[Greg Chambers]

Patrick,

Your idea there is a good one, but here in the west it would have serious water rights implications, and would never get done.  It would be stuck in the courts until we were long gone.

[Carl Rogers]

The small hydro electric is intriguing.

Water reduction, grey water re-use and minimizing stormwater discharge are about as important.  Let's stop the practice washing off range balls with drinking water.

The low hanging fruit first.

[Ryan Farrow]

Rich,

Gravity is easy to create.

You just dam the waterway, create the disparity in the level of the reservoir and outlet stream and off you go.

If that method functioned for centuries, why wouldn't it work today.

ANYONE who has looked behind the 17th tee at Pine Valley knows what I'm talking about.

Patrick, while damns have served their purpose for many years / centuries their environmental impact is disastrous for wildlife and lets not forget, they have a very short life span because of sediment build-up. There are better technologies out there to be "green".

[Ryan Farrow]

Patrick, I'm dieing to hear of 1 thing.... just 1 thing the Bush Administration did to encourage energy independence? They spent the past 4 years trying to save face on their decision to invade Iraq while letting a country like North Korea test its first nuclear bomb and now they are preparing to launch an ICBM. Stick up for the crooks and liars in that pathetic administration all you want but I  don't want to part of the conversation. I'm done.

[Ryan Farrow]

Of course I don't know what the exact cirumstances of your project was and if it was a 20 year return, then I could see why it would be a hard sell.

At what return year would it no longer be a hard sell ?

But there are certainly many instances where people are getting payed back after 2-3, and this is not just for solar panels but windows, insulation, and other energy savers.

Ryan, could you cite the many instances where people are getting payed back after 2-3 years ?

Capital/Investors seek efficiency in ROI.
If "green" was as efficient in ROI as you profess, clubs would be flocking to convert, especially with ROI in just 2-3 years.

Could you cite where ROI on golf club/course related system introductions has produced ROI in just 2-3 years ?

Check out these tables here if you like.

http://www.greenandsave.com/master_roi_table.html

Feel free to ask all the clubs / businesses why they are not flocking to convert. Its their choice, not mine.

[Steve Lang]

 

You mean these tables? 10 yr savings are paltry.. Solar at the bottom, wind not even mentioned (7+yrs to payout small home 2-10 kWh systems in $15,000-20,000 installed cost range is typical today)..  we looked at 7kW generator after last hurricane here.. and i suspect golf course is larger electric demand than my house..

say you want to pump 1000 gpm at 100 psi.. you need ~82 kW on the power line..  do that for 8 hrs/d, 200 d/yr at $0.05 /kWH ... that's around $6546/yr .. of course you can water less.. but I don't see econ yet.. maybe for charging carts???  too bad one doesn't get to just pay the "added green cost" when purchasing something..  maybe we could get a gov't subsidy?

GREEN 'Tune-Up'   Payback Time in years/Added Cost/Annual Savings/10 Yr Savings/Return on Investment (ROI):
Programmable Thermostat    0.6   115   180   1800   157%
Standby Power Reduction    0.8   20   24   240   120%
Compact Fluorescent Lighting    0.8   60   80   800   133%
Hot Water Heater 'Blanket'    0.8   25   30   300   120%
Shower Heads    0.9   180   300   3000   111%
Heating System Tune-up    1.1   200   180   1800   90%
Seal Duct Leaks    1.5   450   300   3000   67%
Dishwasher    1.5   20   13   130   65%
Water Filters    1.9   200   104   1040   52%
Water Efficient Toilets    2   50   25   250   50%
GREEN Remodel               
Solar Path and Garden Lights    2.1   375   176   1760   47%
Windows    2.3   700   300   3000   43%
Skylights    2.3   70   30   300   43%
Insulated Walls    2.5   750   300   3000   40%
Insulated Basement Walls    2.5   750   300   3000   40%
Insulated Ducts    2.5   450   180   1800   40%
Solar Attic Fan    2.5   500   200   2000   40%
Replacement Light Fixtures    2.7   108   40   400   37%
Toxic Free Paints    2.8   70   25   250   36%
Faucets    3   300   100   1000   33%
Water Heater Replacement    3.1   150   48   480   32%
Sealed Air Leaks    3.1   554   180   1800   32%
Whole House Water Filters    3.2   1000   312   3120   31%
Whole House Fans    3.6   450   125   1250   28%
Air Quality Whole House    3.6   450   125   1250   28%
On Demand Water Heater    3.8   450   120   1200   27%
Furnace Replacement    3.8   1145   300   3000   26%
Trees    4   1200   300   3000   25%
Clothes Washer    4.3   300   72   720   24%
Recycled Mulch    4.5   172   38   380   22%
Ceiling Fans    5   300   60   600   20%
Insulate Attics and Ceilings    5   600   120   1200   20%
Refrigerator    5   30   6   60   20%
Light Sharing    5   50   10   100   20%
Heat Pumps / AC    5   1000   200   2000   20%
Greywater - Small Scale    5   300   60   600   20%
Bamboo Floors    5   525   105   1050   20%
Cork Floors    5   525   105   1050   20%
Window Treatments -   5   300   60   600   20%
Carpeting    5.6   280   50   500   18%
Rain Water Collection    6   120   20   200   17%
Composting    6.5   325   50   500   15%
Decking    6.5   899   138   1380   15%
Thru Wall Room to Room Fans   6.6   66   10   100   15%
Air Quality By Room    6.6   250   38   380   15%
Sun Tubes    6.7   300   45   450   15%
GREEN Advanced Systems               
Dual Flush Toilets    6.7   150   23   450   15%
Smart Roofs    6.7   2000   300   6000   15%
Insulated Double Walls    7.5   900   120   2400   13%
Radiant Floors    7.3   4000   550   11000   14%
Thermal Mass - Floors    7.5   3000   400   8000   13%
Southern Overhangs    8   1440   180   3000   13%
Solar – Hot Water    8.9   2500   280   5600   11%
Geo-Thermal    10   30000   3000   60000   10%
Cross Ventilation    10   1200   120   2400   10%
Southern Orientation    10   1200   120   2400   10%
Green Roofs    10   8000   800   16000   10%
Water Conservation/Retention Large Scale    10.2   2200   216   4320   10%
Solar – Electric    10.8   13000   1200   60000   9%

[Jason McNamara]

Ryan, that source you gave listed the avg. return for "Solar - Electric" at 10.8 years.  Also, a quick Google search indicates that the average lifespan of a dam is at least 50 years, and probably more like 75 in the US.  How does that qualify as a "very short life span," given it's longer than the expected service period for a nuclear reactor?

Moreover:

Ruhr Valley coal subsides are now less than half the figure you cited.  They've been dropping for the past few years, a result of EU pressure, the Left losing power in Nordrhein-Westfalen, etc.  Time to update your numbers.  See for example this report from 2007: http://www.dw-world.de/dw/article/0,2144,2330393,00.html     And if the SPD can be shouted down (we'll see), the subsidies will end completely.

You claim fossil fuel companies were subsidized in the 90s and mention the price of a gallon of gas, but don't indicate whether that's related to transportation, generation, or??? If it's not for generation, then (a) it's apples to oranges and (b) let's talk about passenger per mile subsidies for light rail.  Specifics, please.

As for the claim that "Coal, natural gas, and oil are all heavily susidiszed [sic]"
Here are the stats on subsidies ($ per MWh)
Nat'l Gas / Oil    0.25
Coal                  0.44   (bituminous/anthr. coal; ~50% of generation)
Hydroelectric      0.67
Nuclear              1.59
Wind                23.37
Solar                24.34
Refined Coal     29.81   (lignite, basically; <2% of generation)

Source: http://tonto.eia.doe.gov/energy_in_brief/energy_subsidies.cfm  Note also on that page that wind + solar combined for greater total subsidies in $ terms than hard coal, while providing 1/60 the electricity.  (Btw, site appears to be down atm, the PDF is available at http://tinyurl.com/d52qt6 or you can check Google's cache.)

Even if you want to argue that the above figures are artificially low for  hydrocarbons because we are essentially subsidizing by not enacting the appropriate Pigovian taxes, my bet is that with $20 per MWh to spare, hydrocarbons are still a better deal.

I am sure you've studied this stuff at least tangentially, but jeez, every time I've seen you write about the environment on this forum, you come off looking like a Peace Studies major from a college that doesn't offer science (or economics) courses.

[Patrick_Mucci]

Check out these tables here if you like.

http://www.greenandsave.com/master_roi_table.html

Ryan,

This is hardly an independent third party source.

Could you answer the specific questions I previously asked of you ?

Feel free to ask all the clubs / businesses why they are not flocking to convert. Its their choice, not mine.

I can tell you why clubs aren't flocking to convert.
Because in the real world the numbers don't work, no matter how many phony tables you want to quote.

If the numbers/finances worked, clubs would flock to convert, ESPECIALLY in this economy when almost every club is experiencing financial stress and is desperately searching for ways to save money.

You seem to believe everything you read, especially material that seems to support or reinforce your personal beliefs.

[Patrick_Mucci]

Rich,

Gravity is easy to create.

You just dam the waterway, create the disparity in the level of the reservoir and outlet stream and off you go.

If that method functioned for centuries, why wouldn't it work today.

ANYONE who has looked behind the 17th tee at Pine Valley knows what I'm talking about.

Patrick, while damns have served their purpose for many years / centuries their environmental impact is disastrous for wildlife


That's sheer nonsense.

If that's the case, let's kill all the beavers.

Those terrible creatures responsible for so many dams despite "their environmental impact that's disastrous for wildlife"

and lets not forget, they have a very short life span because of sediment build-up.

More nonsense.

Where do you dig up this tripe.

Most dams in my area have lasted and functioned well for more than 80 years.

There are better technologies out there to be "green".


Could you identify them for us ?

[Patrick_Mucci]

How many have seen the old power plant/water wheel, dam and spillway behind the 17th tee at Pine Valley.

The dam that's been there for about 91 years.

I know TEPaul has.

How many others have seen and examined it.

If clubs have waterways and the ability to harness or use them, wouldn't that be an efficient method of producing energy ?

[PThomas]

fwiw, lots of dams are nearing the end of useful lives and need repairs

and many dams are being taken out as they are either falling apart and/or are no longer necessary

when dams are removed they oftentimes produce quick environmental results, unlike most other Best Management Practices...the stronger current of water flushes out the sediment that typically builds up behind the dam, fish migration can occur again, the waterway , if previously channelized, might very well return to its natural shape, etc...........

[Ryan Farrow]

Patrick,


better yet how about you tell me the ROI of creating a dam or better still a water wheel to power a golf club's facilities.


You can keep living in your fantasy land that dams don't degrade River / Stream habitat and ecology and go find a club to power their golf course with a water wheel. I'm sure they will be flocking to you with their wallets wide open and environmental permits in hand.

[Joe Hancock]

Ryan,

You sound like a guy who aspires to "improve" every piece of land you disrupt for golf, and to top it off, you'll do it for free. Good for you.

Joe

[Tony Ristola]

Patrick, I'm dieing to hear of 1 thing.... just 1 thing the Bush Administration did to encourage energy independence? They spent the past 4 years trying to save face on their decision to invade Iraq while letting a country like North Korea test its first nuclear bomb and now they are preparing to launch an ICBM. Stick up for the crooks and liars in that pathetic administration all you want but I  don't want to part of the conversation. I'm done.

Oil is plentiful and cheap. Our development is directly linked with oil.
Bush tried to expand oil production by pushing for drilling where we have oil.
30 years of no refineries being built.
You have to go further back in history to get a decent perspective.

Busy bodies in government got involved with ethanol production and look what it did to the price of food for those most vulnerable, not in America but other countries. It escalated the prices of their staples.

Pat,

Some ares it would be difficult to get a hydro station built, but in others (countries) it would be less so; some areas would embrace it.

I looked at a property that had an old mill stream that's been filled in for 50 years.  The idea was to recreate it with a small power station. The property is in a region that allows farmers to rebuild structures on plots where they once existed. Whether this was possible for hydro was a question.  In the end the region had enough golf, the property wasn't the best located... but it had incredible structures, was a nice piece of land.

.

[Jim Nugent]

Patrick, I'm dieing to hear of 1 thing.... just 1 thing the Bush Administration did to encourage energy independence? They spent the past 4 years trying to save face on their decision to invade Iraq while letting a country like North Korea test its first nuclear bomb and now they are preparing to launch an ICBM. Stick up for the crooks and liars in that pathetic administration all you want but I  don't want to part of the conversation. I'm done.

Simple way for the U.S. to become energy independent.  Strike down the rules prohibiting drilling.  We have way more than enough oil for centuries. 

[Patrick_Mucci]

better yet how about you tell me the ROI of creating a dam or better still a water wheel to power a golf club's facilities.

That's not better yet and I'm not letting you off the hook.

You made irresponsible generalizations, now back them up with supporting documentation OR recant the statements.

As to the water wheel I already cited a club that used one to provide power.  Obviously you don't retain what you read when it disagrees with your opinion.

You can keep living in your fantasy land that dams don't degrade River / Stream habitat and ecology

Like I said, you should be out hunting beavers, those destoyers of Stream habitat and ecology.  You should also know that wildlife, including humans, migrate when their habitat is altered.  Daming streams creates new habitats as well, something you conveniently choose to ignore.

I'm sure you're a proponent of tearing down the Hoover, Grand Coulee and dams built for the TVA.

Are you in favor of tearing down all functional dams ?

and go find a club to power their golf course with a water wheel.


I already cited one, one which you conveniently chose to ignore.

I'm sure they will be flocking to you with their wallets wide open and environmental permits in hand.

Just because you misrepresented the efficiency of solar power on ROI, doesn't mean you should also misrepresent my position, especially when you failed to address any of the specifics in the questions I posed to you.

You're a fraud, making irresponsible statements that you're incapable of supporting.

Just so you know, almost every club has, or is required to create a substantial retention pond.  Do you know how to build a retention pond ?

Hint:  It usually involves dams/dikes.

Do you know what happens when too much water flows or is fed into the retention pond ?

Hint:  They discharge the excess.

Only a fool wouldn't want to take advantage of the potential energy generated by that discharge.  And, the basic technology to do so has been there for centuries.

By the way, what happens to the habitat when a golf course is built ?

Wake up and come down from your ivory tower.
 

Tony Ristola,

I didn't say it was the solution for everyone.

I stated that where clubs have waterways that are capable of  producing energy they should investigate harnessing that energy.

I know of a club with three rather large retention ponds that flow in sequence, with the largest pond being at the highest elevation and the smallest pond being at the lowest elevation.  All three are dammed.  The dams were built about 80 years ago and remain in excellent condition.

It's the perfect situation to install turbines/water wheels for the purpose of producing energy. 

Like windmills where the wind doesn't always blow, there are times when water doesn't always flow, but, when it does, why not capture the energy it produces.

Ryan would prefer to kill all the beavers and put his head in the sand when it comes to harnessing a natural source for energy, one that's been utilized successfully for centuries.

[Steve Lang]

 

$1,280 for 100 W microgenerator , 4-9 mph water velocity needed
$52,000 for 10kW vertical axis waterpower generator

found at http://www.absak.com/catalog/index.php/cPath/33_89_90

reality of old technology pelton wheel generator can be used today at

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=p5KiNf8IaUU

[Tony Ristola]

better yet how about you tell me the ROI of creating a dam or better still a water wheel to power a golf club's facilities.

That's not better yet and I'm not letting you off the hook.

You made irresponsible generalizations, now back them up with supporting documentation OR recant the statements.

As to the water wheel I already cited a club that used one to provide power.  Obviously you don't retain what you read when it disagrees with your opinion.

You can keep living in your fantasy land that dams don't degrade River / Stream habitat and ecology

Like I said, you should be out hunting beavers, those destoyers of Stream habitat and ecology.  You should also know that wildlife, including humans, migrate when their habitat is altered.  Daming streams creates new habitats as well, something you conveniently choose to ignore.

I'm sure you're a proponent of tearing down the Hoover, Grand Coulee and dams built for the TVA.

Are you in favor of tearing down all functional dams ?

and go find a club to power their golf course with a water wheel.


I already cited one, one which you conveniently chose to ignore.

I'm sure they will be flocking to you with their wallets wide open and environmental permits in hand.

Just because you misrepresented the efficiency of solar power on ROI, doesn't mean you should also misrepresent my position, especially when you failed to address any of the specifics in the questions I posed to you.

You're a fraud, making irresponsible statements that you're incapable of supporting.

Just so you know, almost every club has, or is required to create a substantial retention pond.  Do you know how to build a retention pond ?

Hint:  It usually involves dams/dikes.

Do you know what happens when too much water flows or is fed into the retention pond ?

Hint:  They discharge the excess.

Only a fool wouldn't want to take advantage of the potential energy generated by that discharge.  And, the basic technology to do so has been there for centuries.

By the way, what happens to the habitat when a golf course is built ?

Wake up and come down from your ivory tower.
 

Tony Ristola,

I didn't say it was the solution for everyone.

I stated that where clubs have waterways that are capable of  producing energy they should investigate harnessing that energy.

I know of a club with three rather large retention ponds that flow in sequence, with the largest pond being at the highest elevation and the smallest pond being at the lowest elevation.  All three are dammed.  The dams were built about 80 years ago and remain in excellent condition.

It's the perfect situation to install turbines/water wheels for the purpose of producing energy. 

Like windmills where the wind doesn't always blow, there are times when water doesn't always flow, but, when it does, why not capture the energy it produces.

Ryan would prefer to kill all the beavers and put his head in the sand when it comes to harnessing a natural source for energy, one that's been utilized successfully for centuries.

Pat, I follow... no argument from me. If it's wind I'll pass... unless it is somewhere like Galicia, Espana... where it makes sense.

If it works, why not exploit it.

Had dinner a few minutes ago with the owner of two hydro stations on a small river and he figures each station provides enough electricity for 1500 households.


.

[Ryan Farrow]

better yet how about you tell me the ROI of creating a dam or better still a water wheel to power a golf club's facilities.

That's not better yet and I'm not letting you off the hook.

You made irresponsible generalizations, now back them up with supporting documentation OR recant the statements.

As to the water wheel I already cited a club that used one to provide power.  Obviously you don't retain what you read when it disagrees with your opinion.

You can keep living in your fantasy land that dams don't degrade River / Stream habitat and ecology

Like I said, you should be out hunting beavers, those destoyers of Stream habitat and ecology.  You should also know that wildlife, including humans, migrate when their habitat is altered.  Daming streams creates new habitats as well, something you conveniently choose to ignore.

I'm sure you're a proponent of tearing down the Hoover, Grand Coulee and dams built for the TVA.

Are you in favor of tearing down all functional dams ?

and go find a club to power their golf course with a water wheel.


I already cited one, one which you conveniently chose to ignore.

I'm sure they will be flocking to you with their wallets wide open and environmental permits in hand.

Just because you misrepresented the efficiency of solar power on ROI, doesn't mean you should also misrepresent my position, especially when you failed to address any of the specifics in the questions I posed to you.

You're a fraud, making irresponsible statements that you're incapable of supporting.

Just so you know, almost every club has, or is required to create a substantial retention pond.  Do you know how to build a retention pond ?

Hint:  It usually involves dams/dikes.

Do you know what happens when too much water flows or is fed into the retention pond ?

Hint:  They discharge the excess.

Only a fool wouldn't want to take advantage of the potential energy generated by that discharge.  And, the basic technology to do so has been there for centuries.

By the way, what happens to the habitat when a golf course is built ?

Wake up and come down from your ivory tower.
 

Tony Ristola,

I didn't say it was the solution for everyone.

I stated that where clubs have waterways that are capable of  producing energy they should investigate harnessing that energy.

I know of a club with three rather large retention ponds that flow in sequence, with the largest pond being at the highest elevation and the smallest pond being at the lowest elevation.  All three are dammed.  The dams were built about 80 years ago and remain in excellent condition.

It's the perfect situation to install turbines/water wheels for the purpose of producing energy. 

Like windmills where the wind doesn't always blow, there are times when water doesn't always flow, but, when it does, why not capture the energy it produces.

Ryan would prefer to kill all the beavers and put his head in the sand when it comes to harnessing a natural source for energy, one that's been utilized successfully for centuries.

And you have room to talk about specifics? Where are yours? All you do is throw out more questions and say that I don't know anything about anything. Pat I spent an entire semester studying stream / river ecology for a project in Panama. I have read plenty about how your good friend, the beaver, works. I know about the many of the good things beaver dams do and also the nuisance it sometimes creates. Don't come on here pretending to know what I know and don't know. And when in the hell did I say dams should never be built? Who is the one misrepresenting facts.

As for the ROI, I provided a source you asked for after a quick Google search, why don't you find your own source and present that. Then I will be happy to take your argument seriously. If a club chooses to retrofit, and consumed less energy a year, how is that any different than using less energy from the grid because it had an alternate source of hydro power? Both of these alternatives have an upfront investment, and eventual return from saving money on reduce energy consumption from the grid.

As for the water wheel at Pine Valley, how much electricity is generated? How is the power transferred to the clubs facilities?  How much time / labor is used to maintain this? Steve Lang produced and interesting video that sounded promising and if it could be used effectively that would be great. But if it was as good as it sounds wouldn't you see it being used everywhere possible? Unfortunately I could find very little information outside that video of a man clearly trying to sell you a specific product. Hardly an independent third party source.

[Patrick_Mucci]

And you have room to talk about specifics? Where are yours?


I don't need any because I wasn't the one making dumb outlandish allegations, you were.

I asked you to produce supporting documentation for your allegations and to date, you've failed to do so.

All you do is throw out more questions


There's something called responsibility and accountability.
When you make statements, especially outlandish statements, you can't expect to be granted blanket immunity.  You're accountable for your actions  and the burden of proof to support your statements falls on your shoulders, not anyone else's.

and say that I don't know anything about anything.

Could you cite where I stated that ?

Pat I spent an entire semester studying stream / river ecology for a project in Panama. I have read plenty about how your good friend, the beaver, works. I know about the many of the good things beaver dams do and also the nuisance it sometimes creates. Don't come on here pretending to know what I know and don't know. And when in the hell did I say dams should never be built? Who is the one misrepresenting facts.

You're the one misrepresenting the facts.

As to dams, here's one of your statements:
"while damns have served their purpose for many years / centuries their environmental impact is disastrous for wildlife and lets not forget, they have a very short life span because of sediment build-up.

As for the ROI, I provided a source you asked for after a quick Google search, why don't you find your own source and present that. Then I will be happy to take your argument seriously.


As to your "google source" one could hardly call it an independent unbiased source, and you KNEW that.

As to finding my own sources, I don't need to because I'm not the one making the ridiculous claim that ROI begins within 2-3 years, you are.

Identify for us the specific device that begins ROI in 2 years.
Cite for us the cost of the device and the amount of the ROI.

Failure to produce supporting documentation means that your claim is worthless and that future statements made by you must be looked at with enlightened suspicion.

If a club chooses to retrofit, and consumed less energy a year, how is that any different than using less energy from the grid because it had an alternate source of hydro power?

It's different because you failed to list the cost to retrofit, a substantial, if not THE substantial factor in determining whether or not to embark on such a project.

Both of these alternatives have an upfront investment, and eventual return from saving money on reduce energy consumption from the grid.

But you tend to gloss over the amount of the upfront investment, as if it's de minimus, and that's disengenuous.  It's an intellectually dishhonest attempt to promote your agenda and your beliefs, without supplying the required substantiation. 

As for the water wheel at Pine Valley, how much electricity is generated?
I don't know the exact amount of electricity that was generated.
The next time I go there I'll make an inquiry.
Unfortunately, TEPaul's good friend is no longer with us.
He would have known the details.  Perhaps TEPaul knows them.

How is the power transferred to the clubs facilities?  


By wires

How much time / labor is used to maintain this?


Very little, I'd imagine.

Gravity seems to work well without man's supervision  and since water seeks its own level, I don't think they needed a clerk of the works to watch over it.

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