Dunes at Seville Trumps World Woods Pine Barrens

« **on:** March 25, 2009, 09:13:52 AM »

On the recent 12th Annual "Other" Senior Tour, 6 out of 8 golfers preferred the Dunes at Seville over Pine Barrens. Scores ranged from 79 to 105. For those who have played both, please post your most persuasive argument(s) as to why Pine Barrens is more highly regarded.

Bogey

« **Reply #1 on:** March 25, 2009, 09:22:26 AM »

Personally I thought there was a LOT more variety at Pine Barrens. Too many holes at Dunes started off with a mega waste bunker to the left; a lot of them looked very similar. There were a couple of very strategically designed holes at Pine Barrens (#3 and #15), nothing to equal that at Dunes.

Conditioning was comparable at the two courses (during the Dixie Cup last October).

« **Reply #2 on:** March 25, 2009, 10:29:34 AM »

See any Mermaids there Mike?

They are similar in that they are both built on a lot of sand, much of it exposed. Both have more movement than your typical Florida courses do. Both have pretty interesting greens. The 17th at the Dunes being the wildest.

I think the best par 3 of both courses is at the Dunes, the 8th:

John Mayhugh's pic on the Dixie Cup V thread: http://golfclubatlas.com/forum/index.php/topic,37030.msg758620.html#msg758620

If pressed to choose, I go with the Faz, I love Pine Barrens. There's plenty of heroic shots there that bring me back again and again. The second shot at 4, second shot at 14, tee shot at 15, 16 from the back tee...

Bill says it best, many holes feel similar at the Dunes, with the big waste bunkers down the left side. In all fairness, I only played The Dunes once and have played PB at least 10 times. I also played really sh***y at the Dunes, it was the last day of the trip and I was spent. I'd play it again for sure.

Glad you had a good time.

« **Reply #3 on:** March 25, 2009, 10:47:11 AM »

I've played both courses many times, and have played Seville in many different stages of conditioning. I remember playing 54 holes for $20 w/ cart at Seville once. I'm glad to hear that the conditioning is up to snuff where it can be in the conversation with the likes of Pine Barrens. Like Eric, I'm a little partial to PB. It was the first quality course that I've ever played and I have a number of fond and not-so-fond memories there (my wife broke her foot there). Like Eric, I love the 4th, 14th and 16th. I also really like the 5th hole.

Both courses are great values. I often tell my friends who are planning weekend golf road trips in the midwest that they're probably better off flying to Tampa and playing WW and the Dunes.

« **Reply #4 on:** March 25, 2009, 10:56:56 AM »

I've never seen The Dunes at Seville.

But my best explanation of "why Pine Barrens is more highly regarded" is because they hired Tom Fazio and they spent a ton of money on marketing and got the course ranked highly ... they were well funded (by Japanese investors). Whereas the Dunes at Seville first got attention because it was going bankrupt, didn't it?

« **Reply #5 on:** March 25, 2009, 11:10:08 AM »

Tom,

Your solution hints at what's troubling me on this comparision. Throw in the cache of Stranz's involvement with Fazio and Pine Barrens gets a bump from the cognoscenti. The sexiness (not necessarily greatness) of the 4th and 15th at Pine Barrens also gives the course a boost.

The Dunes' conditioning is easily superior to Pine Barrens and the course plays extremely firm and fast and Hills makes excellent use of angled fairways from the tee. The four short holes there are superior to those at PB in my opinion. The greens are interesting, though they lack the brilliant subtleness of the contouring at PB.

At less than half the price, I'd likely play the Dunes 2 to 1 over Pine Barrens on a return trip. FWIW, I was one of the two dissenting votes.

Mike

« **Reply #6 on:** March 25, 2009, 11:13:57 AM »

The Dunes at Seville was mentioned in John Strawn's book, Driving the Green.

It was touted as a hidden gem built on the cheap.

Since, I thought I read A. Hills came back through and spruced it up....

« **Reply #7 on:** March 25, 2009, 11:15:53 AM »

More than a spruce up - I was told they spent $4.5 million with Hills spending a significant amount of time on site.

Mike

« **Reply #8 on:** March 25, 2009, 11:19:13 AM »

I've played both and loved Dunes at Seville, but I thought that Pine Barrens was a much better golf course. Seville may be the best value I know and I love the craters on the back nine.

Its holes like the 4th and the 15th at Pine Barrens where the player is given plenty of opportunity to take on additional risk that I find compelling.

« **Reply #9 on:** March 25, 2009, 12:07:14 PM »

I too think that there is more variety at Pine Barrens than Dunes. But the Dunes Club is very good and well worth a visit.

I'll stick with my Dixie Cup assertion that the Dunes Club is one of the worst marketed good courses anywhere.

« **Reply #10 on:** March 25, 2009, 01:09:41 PM »

Quote from: Michael_Hendren on March 25, 2009, 11:10:08 AM

Tom,

Your solution hints at what's troubling me on this comparision. Throw in the cache of Stranz's involvement with Fazio and Pine Barrens gets a bump from the cognoscenti. The sexiness (not necessarily greatness) of the 4th and 15th at Pine Barrens also gives the course a boost.

The Dunes' conditioning is easily superior to Pine Barrens and the course plays extremely firm and fast and Hills makes excellent use of angled fairways from the tee. The four short holes there are superior to those at PB in my opinion. The greens are interesting, though they lack the brilliant subtleness of the contouring at PB.

At less than half the price, I'd likely play the Dunes 2 to 1 over Pine Barrens on a return trip. FWIW, I was one of the two dissenting votes.

Mike

I am told Strantz did not paricipate in the World Woods project.

I have also been told that the primary on site assistant at Dunes was fellow GCA'er Mike Dasher, who has carved out a reputation for being a wizard on low budget projects. Regardless of Dasher's involvement, I preferred the Dunes prior to the renovation, especially the par 3 holes on the back.

But Dunes is a fine course in any event, and I agree with Eric Smith that the 8th is an all world par 3. I can't really say one course is head and shoulders above the other. I play both regularly

« **Reply #11 on:** March 25, 2009, 01:54:27 PM »

I second John's comments regarding Stranz at Seville.
I too played both many times and even when the conditioning was suspect, the terrain made missing either on a trip a mistake, IMO.

« **Reply #12 on:** March 25, 2009, 02:08:30 PM »

This is a great and cheap golf trip. Everyone I know loves the courses but the accommodations and restaurants can leave a bit to be desired. But if it means keeping the price reasonable then I'd rather have really good golf and mediocre amenities than the other way around.

« **Reply #13 on:** March 25, 2009, 02:24:11 PM »

Jerry,

We actually enjoyed accomodations that ENHANCED the experience. David Strickland at the Chazzahowitzka Hotel is an outstanding proprietor. This 8 rooms hotel is ten minutes from either Dunes or World Woods. Eight bedrooms with twins, four larged tiled showers, leather sofa's and large TV in common room and tasty breakfast and dinner on your schedule. Enjoy your own adult beverages then wait for the call to dinner (prime rib one night, fried grouper with killer hush puppies the next). Just leave remaining beers in the cooler on the front porch for the next group. Bonus points for honky tonk within walking distance.

We quickly developed the habit of yelling "honey, we're home" when we returned from our rounds. Highly recommended.

www.chazhotel.com

Mike

« **Reply #14 on:** March 25, 2009, 03:26:18 PM »

Quote from: Michael_Hendren on March 25, 2009, 02:24:11 PM

Jerry,

We actually enjoyed accomodations that ENHANCED the experience. David Strickland at the Chazzahowitzka Hotel is an outstanding proprietor. This 8 rooms hotel is ten minutes from either Dunes or World Woods. Eight bedrooms with twins, four larged tiled showers, leather sofa's and large TV in common room and tasty breakfast and dinner on your schedule. Enjoy your own adult beverages then wait for the call to dinner (prime rib one night, fried grouper with killer hush puppies the next). Just leave remaining beers in the cooler on the front porch for the next group. Bonus points for honky tonk within walking distance.

We quickly developed the habit of yelling "honey, we're home" when we returned from our rounds. Highly recommended.

www.chazhotel.com

Mike

Wish I'd known about the Chaz for the Dixie Cup. I stayed at, IIRC, the Comfort Holiday Day Generic Express for $89, I'd have paid $120 for something with character. And a bar. Not to mention fried grouper with hushpuppies.

« **Reply #15 on:** March 25, 2009, 04:02:42 PM »

I played both on consecutive days in January. Deciding between the two is a nice problem to have.

Pine Barrens is a more challenging course, I believe, if only because waste areas tend to include other elements (e.g. grasses, bushes, trees, and the like) while similar areas at Dunes were simply sand (with some exceptions).

Dunes #17 is an interesting hole, but is utterly defenseless without the green. It's not nearly as strong as a couple of Pine Barrens' reachable par fives (like #4). Dunes #18 was a very good hole, I thought, what with the centerline bunkers and putting surface and all.

Possibly OT: Dunes gets a huge nod when one considers value; we played Pine Barrens on a day when $165 was the going rate, while Dunes was around $40 the next day. If the two courses were remotely comparable (and they are much more than that), I'd head to the Dunes for that difference alone.

WW

« **Reply #16 on:** March 25, 2009, 04:15:42 PM »

Have played both and rank as follows:

WW Rolling Oaks
WW Pine Barrens
Brooksville CC Back Nine
Dunes
Brooksville CC Front Nine

Dunes is a good golf course but there is just too much redundancy on the par 4s and the diverse 10-13 stretch isn't enough to take it over the top.

« **Reply #17 on:** March 25, 2009, 04:24:07 PM »

Kyle, you are a no-account contrarian!

You enjoy Rolling Oaks more than Pine Barrens?

« **Reply #18 on:** March 25, 2009, 05:09:44 PM »

Quote from: Michael_Hendren on March 25, 2009, 02:24:11 PM

Jerry,

We actually enjoyed accomodations that ENHANCED the experience. David Strickland at the Chazzahowitzka Hotel is an outstanding proprietor. This 8 rooms hotel is ten minutes from either Dunes or World Woods. Eight bedrooms with twins, four larged tiled showers, leather sofa's and large TV in common room and tasty breakfast and dinner on your schedule. Enjoy your own adult beverages then wait for the call to dinner (prime rib one night, fried grouper with killer hush puppies the next). Just leave remaining beers in the cooler on the front porch for the next group. Bonus points for honky tonk within walking distance.

We quickly developed the habit of yelling "honey, we're home" when we returned from our rounds. Highly recommended.

www.chazhotel.com

Mike

I've twice had trips planned where we were going to stay at the Chaz Hotel but both times the trip got canceled; now I'll definitely have to get down there. Did you go fishing?

« **Reply #19 on:** March 25, 2009, 05:14:18 PM »

No fishing, but apparently it is outstanding there. For families, David also runs a snorkeling outing for scalloping - apparently 6 to 8 feet of crystal clear water, then cooks them that evening.

Interesting ledger shows a number of Nashville businessmen making annual fishing treks there back in the late 1940's.

bogey

« **Reply #20 on:** March 25, 2009, 06:51:51 PM »

WWPB over the Dunes any day,
unless I'm paying full price -then the Dunes
(too many similar par 4's at the Dunes and a few fugly houses on top of the course)
Ww has too many similar par 3's,but it's a nice 36 hole day-I enjoy Rolling Oaks equally to PB

« **Reply #21 on:** March 25, 2009, 08:17:11 PM »

Quote from: Tom_Doak on March 25, 2009, 10:56:56 AM

Whereas the Dunes at Seville first got attention because it was going bankrupt, didn't it?

Or maybe because they have a mermaid in the marketing on their website:

http://www.dunesgolfclub.com/index.php?option=com_content&task=view&id=22&Itemid=41

« **Reply #22 on:** March 25, 2009, 09:00:54 PM »

Andy,

I suppose I am. I felt that Rolling Oaks offered a better variety of Par 5s and Par 3s with a stout test of Par 4s.

One thing that Rollings Oaks has over Pine Barrens is more "substance." While Pine Barrens is a worthy course, I felt that once one peeled away a lot of the visual stuff going on, the strategies and problems presented to the golfer were much more basic than those presented by Rolling Oaks - where lines of play are not as readily apparent.

Both courses suffer from awkward corners, but the 8-9-10 stretch at Pine Barrens is so hemmed in it feels out of character with the spaciousness of the rest of the golf course. Rolling Oaks has similar issues around the turn, but without the change in character. I also think Rolling Oaks takes better advantage of the elevation change offered by that part of Florida and the 11-16 stretch is as good as anything I've played during my time down there. It's could possibly be the best 6 hole stretch in the Tampa area.

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