Colt and long uphill holes

[Alfonso Erhardt]

In Swinley Forest, Colt coped with the elevation change from the 6th tee to the 8th tee by routing two long par 4s in a straight line with full perspective of the coming hole. It is a beautiful view indeed and a nice way to cope with a continuous uphill slope by breaking it into two holes.

In Madrid (1914) Colt used the same scheme by placing holes 1,2,3 on a straight line with a complete perspective of what's ahead. I  have also seen the same (but downhill) in Sunningdale.

I have only played a few of Colt's courses so my question is: Is this a common feature of Colt's? Was there a reason for this type of routing?

Thanks,

Alfonso

[Cristian]

last week I was at St George's Hill; this is a picture of the uphill (although the hole is not uphill until the approach shot)  short par 4 12th with the longer par 4 uphill 13th in the background. Is this the sort of thing you mean? or do you mean downhill rather than uphill? I have played several Colt courses but I can't think of another example...

[Peter Pallotta]

Alfonso -- I don't know the answer to your question and I hope others chime in, but this is what Alison wrote about Swinley in 1920:

"The ground is very undulating, and the course provides a wonderful variety of stances and of approach play, while at the same time it is by no means tiring to walk over. The views through the gaps in the surrounding pine trees are very beautiful, and in May the rhododendrons form a magnificent background to several of the greens."

Maybe it was as simple as that? That is, maybe Colt wanted to have some variety of stances while not making it (or making it seem) too tiring a walk, all the while offering up views that were beautiful.

Peter

[Bill_McBride]

When was Swinley Forest built?  I tried looking it up in Darwin's early book on the Golf Courses of the British Isles but no luck.  Same with Huntercombe, which is mentioned no less than three times, with references to other courses with similar holes including Musselburgh, but no profile.

[Neil_Crafter]

Bill
Swinley rates a couple of paragraphs in Darwin's update "The Golf Course of Great Britain" from 1925. Huntercombe a little less.

[Alfonso Erhardt]

Cristian,

I was thinking uphill. The photo you show is what I was trying to describe. There is also a picture in this thread about Swinley (http://golfclubatlas.com/forum/index.php/topic,22881.0.html) and I was just curious as to whether it was a common feature in Colt's courses (land permitting, of course).

Regards,

[Sean_A]

Alfonso -- I don't know the answer to your question and I hope others chime in, but this is what Alison wrote about Swinley in 1920:

"The ground is very undulating, and the course provides a wonderful variety of stances and of approach play, while at the same time it is by no means tiring to walk over. The views through the gaps in the surrounding pine trees are very beautiful, and in May the rhododendrons form a magnificent background to several of the greens."

Maybe it was as simple as that? That is, maybe Colt wanted to have some variety of stances while not making it (or making it seem) too tiring a walk, all the while offering up views that were beautiful.

Peter

Peter

6 and 7 are good holes and the idea of one long continuous stretch is pretty cool.  


But I think the reason for these two holes is the following holes.  8 is great little par 3 with a brilliant green site sort of perched on a crest, yet downhill with the lay of the land running right.  


Then of course we get one of the best 2 shotters in the heathlands with #9.  A glorious downhill drive to a fairway which swings deceptively hard left and to a plateauish green.  


Alfonso, I have given it some thought and I can't think of another instance where Colt pulled a Swinley.  Swinley is Colt's first biggie so he may have tried this idea and decided it isn't quite right.  To be truthful, I didn't think it was a great back to back sequence and the idea of the extended views was the real life saver  - well that and what going to near the top of the hill provided for the next two holes. 

Ciao  

[Tony_Muldoon]

Alfonso that’s a great observation.  I know exactly what you mean, I’ve seen it on a few Heathland courses but I couldn’t say for sure if it’s only Colt even though I’m struggling to identify other examples.  Even so you have to give him credit for using the land so brilliantly.  Seeing a couple of holes linked together gets a sense of excitement going and may even distract you from the hole you are on.  Mostly though it works because it's a change of pace from all the twists and turns that most of these course have with holes playing in isolation.

Is this the view at Swinley you were thinking of?


The land on Links courses wouldn’t adapt to this so well. There are places, the third tee at Dornock and the 5th at Rosses Point, where you can see the course suddenly unfold in front of you but that’s not quite the same effect.  You need that long movement in the land and trees to block out the rest of the view.

More open courses like Sutton Coldfield

And Walton Heath


Have a suggestion of what you’re after but it’s not got that effect.

Can anyone else think of linked holes like this? 

I’ll check my pictures – possibly 5&6 at the Addington (again not uphill)? (17&18 at Woking? Not uphill) I'm sure there's something at Worplesdon or West Hill?


Edit I see Sean has the right picture at Swinley.

[Alfonso Erhardt]

Sean, Tony,

I think that what makes the feature unique is the long uphill land in front of the player. It is interesting as Tony says that instead of chosing an alternative routing, Colt (and others) decided to place a couple of the holes on a straight line. It is clearly the views which add beauty but i also think that the background hole also deceives in depth perception in the first hole, which looks a lot longer than it really is. (at least for me!!).

I will try to get a picture of Puerta de Hierro's 2-3 sequence to show.

[TEPaul]

"I have only played a few of Colt's courses so my question is: Is this a common feature of Colt's? Was there a reason for this type of routing?"


Alphonso:

I would think an accurate and factual answer to a question like that would be damn near impossible now on any particular golf course or routing. So many varied considerations seem to go into various routings and they would all need to be considered as to what the designer or router was after on any particular site. For instance it may've been advantageous to the over all routing or balance and variety of holes on the course to just hug something like a straight boundary line for 2 to 3 holes in a line but who really knows now.

On paper routing three or more holes in the same direction was generally not considered the ideal thing to do though in the minds of some-----ex with Colt and Crump at Pine Valley. On that course the basic concept was to keep the holes "turning on the compass" (no more than two holes in the same direction).

But almost always, particularly on complex togography and ground, the jigsaw puzzle like considerations of balance and variety of holes, topographical obstacles or whatever can skew or even throw out some of even the best overall routing concepts on paper.

Again, your original question is probably fairly unanswerable at least accurately in the mind of the designer.

I am mindful that the first three holes at Alwoodley go out in the same direction even if they aren't all visible from the start.

Speaking of uphill, it also occurs to me that initially George Crump was trying to send or route too many tee shots directly up and over steep inclines (he apparently loved the Driver and was instinctually inclined to require height on too many tee shots, at least initially----I think Colt served to tone him down some on that). I'm certainly glad the final routing of PV minimized that idea somewhat, as it probably would have felt a bit much still today.

[Alfonso Erhardt]

TEPaul,

I agree with your point. With my question I was trying to know if Colt had ever made any statement regarding that type of layout.

[David Neveux]

I know this may be a bit off topic, as it's not uphill or a Colt design.  The holes aren't on a perfectly straight line, but I'll admit to being somewhat confused / decieved by all the information that hits you standing on that tee.  The vantage point is the 7th (par 5) Tee at the Kingsley Club (the green is off to the right, online with the 9th(par 3) green) The hole of to the left is the shortish par 4 8th. 



I may have some more examples of this, I'll search some photo's tomorrow.  Intersting concept.

Nev

[Alister Matheson]

 I think Wentworth has some good examples of what you are interested in and particularly on the East course has the best par 4 at Wentworth the 11th a long uphiller.

A few holes before the 11th seem to flow in a staightish line giving  a more open feel to that part of the course .Also the burma road on the west its quite level though.

I have played sunningdale new ,st georges hill and wentworth and there are stretches on all these courses which fit in with your theory about it being a common colt features but i am certainly not experienced enough in his work to say a resounding YES.

[TEPaul]

"TEPaul,

I agree with your point. With my question I was trying to know if Colt had ever made any statement regarding that type of layout."


Alphonso:

What type of layout? Do you mean a course where three or more holes go in the same direction? If so, I think Colt certainly understood just how different various sites and projects could be for all kinds of unique reasons and therefore I doubt he would ever have wanted to pin himself down to some even semi "standardization" statement that way.