Best courses on difficult to terrible land

[Ally Mcintosh]

Far too many examples here are on essentially good land. Decent soil, large movement. Difficult perhaps but with a lot of potential.

A typical terrible site is one of flat fields on heavy clay, arable land in a wet climate. We should remember that when we berate many of the new, inland designs in Ireland.

[Doug Wright]

The worst land for a golf course I've seen is The Sanctuary south of Denver. Jim Engh doesn't get a lot of love here but he did a good job manufacturing a golf course on a terribly severe mountainside. 

[Thomas Dai]

Far too many examples here are on essentially good land. Decent soil, large movement. Difficult perhaps but with a lot of potential.
A typical terrible site is one of flat fields on heavy clay, arable land in a wet climate. We should remember that when we berate many of the new, inland designs in Ireland.

Heresy to some but perhaps the likes of The Belfry or the 2010 at Celtic Manor would fit into this category too? Sow's ear/silk purse?

atb

[David Davis]

I would side with Ally here. From extensive first hand experience I can tell you that most likely the worst land I've ever seen to build golf courses exists here in The Netherlands. It's essentially swamp land or reclaimed land from the sea. The ground is a kind of clay, either muddy or hard as rock, they call it polder. Plus it sinks extensively over time.

The ground I'm seeing in these photos might be difficult to work with due to overly rugged or rocky soil but here we are talking northern maritime climate damp to wet year round and swamp land.

I'm sure there are some that have decent architecture but I would need to revert to Frank Pont on this one as I avoid them like the plague, even though I've played quite a few of them.

The other type of ground that is pretty bad is garbage fills. I guess the only advantage there is that you end up having to bring in amazing amounts of sand to shape and start with a flat sight.

[Lou_Duran]

I like Lochinvar in the flat wetlands of Houston.  Why it was built there is beyond me, but it is a very good golf course since they've given up on having bent greens.

[Ronald Montesano]

RTJ's Golden Horseshoe in Williamsburg, VA ... very narrow, abrupt hills in the middle of the property

+1...even that long, boring par five that gets you back to the cauldron of par threes isn't that bad a hole.

[Ronald Montesano]

Carl,

To predict Lester's response, he had wanted to build a course on that land ever since he saw it. The owner was a while in coming around, as I recall, so I'll sh&t myself if Lester says it was challenging.

[Dave McCollum]

I’ll nominate Huntsman Springs.  It’s basically totally manufactured on a dead flat, boggy mountain meadow.  You walk into the native, your footprints basically fill with water.  There’s water on something like 16 of 18 holes.  It’s a marvel it is as good and playable as it is.  I was very impressed by the result given the difficulty of the site, truly a zero site except for the views of the Tetons.

That said, I was rendered speechless and visually overloaded by Stone Eagle.  Standing there looking at it, I couldn’t believe it was possible.  In my completely humble opinion, it is in a class by itself.  I’m not a rating guy and haven’t played much from the lists—maybe 20 of someone’s top 100 list—but Stone Eagle blew my circuits like no other course.  Not so much on a relative scale based on the quality of the golf or course, but more simply that such a beautiful course could have been built on such a uniquely hostile (and beautiful) landscape.  This is also from a guy that plays most of his golf at the bottom of 500 foot deep rocky gorge in the high desert and knows a few things about what it takes to maintain a course in such a wild and wooly place.

[Jon Cavalier]

I’ll nominate Huntsman Springs.  It’s basically totally manufactured on a dead flat, boggy mountain meadow.  You walk into the native, your footprints basically fill with water.  There’s water on something like 16 of 18 holes.  It’s a marvel it is as good and playable as it is.  I was very impressed by the result given the difficulty of the site, truly a zero site except for the views of the Tetons.

That said, I was rendered speechless and visually overloaded by Stone Eagle.  Standing there looking at it, I couldn’t believe it was possible.  In my completely humble opinion, it is in a class by itself.  I’m not a rating guy and haven’t played much from the lists—maybe 20 of someone’s top 100 list—but Stone Eagle blew my circuits like no other course.  Not so much on a relative scale based on the quality of the golf or course, but more simply that such a beautiful course could have been built on such a uniquely hostile (and beautiful) landscape.  This is also from a guy that plays most of his golf at the bottom of 500 foot deep rocky gorge in the high desert and knows a few things about what it takes to maintain a course in such a wild and wooly place.

On that note, how about Bayonne? It's an excellent course that's built entirely on jersey sludge and harbor muck. Extra points for the "difficulty" of mostly isolating the course from the surrounding visuals.

[Sean_A]

To me there is an inherent divide between walking and riding courses.  If the land dictates riding then often it doesn't matter much what the archie does, may as well making it a viewing course with some interesting shots because it very difficult to get something really special from a golf PoV out of this situation.  I am told Stone Eagle is an exception. 

Otherwise, I agree with Ally.  That said, I can't really cite something noteworthy enough to travel for on a terrible piece of land (though there must be a few doozies in wetland/swampy areas).  Church Stretton may be an exception only because somehow the course is walkable.  I like it, but I wouldn't say CS is better than a Doak 4. 

Ciao

[Sandy Smith]

I would say that it's a toss up between Stone Eagle and Sagebrush. Both are wonderful courses that in my opion walking is not a option.

[cary lichtenstein]

Far too many examples here are on essentially good land. Decent soil, large movement. Difficult perhaps but with a lot of potential.

A typical terrible site is one of flat fields on heavy clay, arable land in a wet climate. We should remember that when we berate many of the new, inland designs in Ireland.

I agree. Whistling Straits, a flat airfield is a great example by Pete Dye

[Josh Tarble]

Far too many examples here are on essentially good land. Decent soil, large movement. Difficult perhaps but with a lot of potential.

A typical terrible site is one of flat fields on heavy clay, arable land in a wet climate. We should remember that when we berate many of the new, inland designs in Ireland.

I agree. Whistling Straits, a flat airfield is a great example by Pete Dye

Thinking along those same lines...wouldn't TPC Sawgrass be another great example?