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Dan Moore

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Vista Verde January 2009 (Photos)
« on: February 06, 2009, 02:56:03 PM »
Recently had a chance to take in this new course in the Phoenix Scottsdale area.  No clubhouse yet and little housing yet in what will be full-fledged housing development course.  Some beautiful backdrops.  My only complaint was with some very slow greens.  Maybe its the type of grass this time of year.  Currently one of the best values in the Valley if you don't mind the absence of amenities. 

Course has been discussed before so I'll just put up some photos without much commentary.  Suffice to say it is near the top of the 20 or so courses I've played in the valley, but not at the very top. 








6th





7th Short par 4


























18th







« Last Edit: February 06, 2009, 03:27:36 PM by Dan Moore »
"Is there any other game which produces in the human mind such enviable insanity."  Bernard Darwin

Phil McDade

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Re: Vista Verde January 2009 (Photos)
« Reply #1 on: February 06, 2009, 03:17:02 PM »
Dan:

Lucky you! Arizona beats Chicago/Midwest weather this time of year, for sure.

I've always liked the sharp edging of the bunkers at VV. How wide are the fairways there? Curious your view re. playability from the tees, and carries off the tees.

Brian Joines

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Re: Vista Verde January 2009 (Photos)
« Reply #2 on: February 06, 2009, 03:41:17 PM »
I played here in December and really enjoyed it. I thought that the course was very playable from the tees. The fairways were very generous and you're not always dead when you miss one either. I can't remember any intimidating carries with the driver either. Am I forgetting some??

I played Troon North - Monument the day before and thought Vista Verde was MUCH more playable from the tee.

Dan Moore

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Re: Vista Verde January 2009 (Photos)
« Reply #3 on: February 06, 2009, 04:33:15 PM »
Phil,

I didn't lose a ball that day and it was the first time I touched a club since playing Lawsonia in mid-October.  That should say something about the fairway widths and playability. 

For example, I played far right on 18, the line of instinct, and noted a huge amount of fairway left which also gave a better angle with respect to the irrigation pond/waterhole. 

I think the course offers a good amount of playability, short game interest on and around the greens (which would improve with faster greens than I saw) and a variety of strategic options on the par 5's and short par 4's.  Add the nice "Vistas" and all in all its quite enjoyable. 
"Is there any other game which produces in the human mind such enviable insanity."  Bernard Darwin

Jim Dawson

Re: Vista Verde January 2009 (Photos)
« Reply #4 on: February 07, 2009, 09:35:57 AM »
Dan,
We played there a couple of years ago and enjoyed it. We will be going there again a week from Friday.
Pics look great, Thanks.
JD

Matt_Ward

Re: Vista Verde January 2009 (Photos)
« Reply #5 on: February 07, 2009, 02:31:36 PM »
Any word on the fees charged for '09 ?

Steve_ Shaffer

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Re: Vista Verde January 2009 (Photos)
« Reply #6 on: February 07, 2009, 03:36:50 PM »
"Some of us worship in churches, some in synagogues, some on golf courses ... "  Adlai Stevenson
Hyman Roth to Michael Corleone: "We're bigger than US Steel."
Ben Hogan “The most important shot in golf is the next one”

Brian Joines

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Re: Vista Verde January 2009 (Photos)
« Reply #7 on: February 07, 2009, 05:42:30 PM »
I played there for $75 during the week of the Fiesta Bowl. I think that's a very reasonable rate for that course.

Mike McGuire

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Re: Vista Verde January 2009 (Photos)
« Reply #8 on: February 07, 2009, 10:11:34 PM »
Overseeded and striped. Looks ridiculous and sounds like it plays awful.

We are booked there next week and I WAS looking forward to it.

The last time I played it was dormant and playing awesome. Three hundred yard drives for guys that hit it 260 ending up in bunkers or with short irons in.

When is the depression and water restrictions going to end this?
 

Andy Troeger

Re: Vista Verde January 2009 (Photos)
« Reply #9 on: February 08, 2009, 12:02:25 AM »
Overseeded and striped. Looks ridiculous and sounds like it plays awful.

We are booked there next week and I WAS looking forward to it.

 

Mike,
Getting a little carried away with this post aren't we? Every other post on this thread has been generally positive so the "sounds like it plays awful" doesn't seem to apply to any of the other posters. VV would appear to be in a lot better condition from the photos than Apache usually is, overseeded or not.

Jim Nugent

Re: Vista Verde January 2009 (Photos)
« Reply #10 on: February 08, 2009, 01:29:15 AM »
Mike, could you report back to us after you play there next week?  Curious to hear how it actually plays. 

Mike McGuire

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Re: Vista Verde January 2009 (Photos)
« Reply #11 on: February 08, 2009, 01:30:11 AM »
Andy

Read the original poster's comments. His complaint was very slow greens. I personally would rather play AS dormant and in abandoned condition than VV slow and soggy.

Mike McGuire

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Re: Vista Verde January 2009 (Photos)
« Reply #12 on: February 08, 2009, 01:34:01 AM »
Andy

Read the original poster's comments. His complaint was very slow greens.

 I personally would rather play AS dormant and in abandoned condition than VV slow and soggy.

Jim

Will report back. I love the course and hope the mowers were just off duty the day Dan Moore played

Andy Troeger

Re: Vista Verde January 2009 (Photos)
« Reply #13 on: February 08, 2009, 09:16:43 AM »
Mike,
True, but that was his only complaint in a post that was generally complementary. When I think of problems due to overseeding it affects fairways much more than greens--but then again I know very little about grasses to know details about what was done compared to this group. Apache's greens last month were definitely on the slow side too.

I sure wouldn't head to AZ in February if you're that passionately against overseeded courses! If you have access to Desert Mountain's Outlaw course you would definitely enjoy that experience--its brown as can be.
« Last Edit: February 08, 2009, 09:18:25 AM by Andy Troeger »

Dan Moore

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Re: Vista Verde January 2009 (Photos)
« Reply #14 on: February 08, 2009, 12:48:57 PM »
Regarding the conditioning, the fairways were a bit spotty in places which you can see in a few photos, I assume where the overseeding didn't take.  They weren't a problem though so I didn't mention it.  The greens though were pretty exceptionally slow.  I kept thinking how much fun they would be if they had some run out to them.  We played on a Monday so who knows, it may have been a maintenance issue. 

FYI.  It wasn't wet or soggy at all. 
"Is there any other game which produces in the human mind such enviable insanity."  Bernard Darwin

Steve Okula

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Re: Vista Verde January 2009 (Photos)
« Reply #15 on: February 08, 2009, 01:01:09 PM »
I have an idea.

Whe a thread is introduced on a specific golf course, especially one that is not universally known, tell us who in the world designed the damned thing.

Thank you.
The small wheel turns by the fire and rod,
the big wheel turns by the grace of God.

Phil McDade

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Re: Vista Verde January 2009 (Photos)
« Reply #16 on: February 08, 2009, 01:30:18 PM »
Steve:

VV is a Ken Kavanaugh design (brother of former GCA poster John Kavanaugh). Matt Ward among others on the board is pretty familiar w/ Ken's work, which is centered I believe in the West and Rocky Mtn. states?

Matt_Ward

Re: Vista Verde January 2009 (Photos)
« Reply #17 on: February 08, 2009, 01:49:10 PM »
Mike:

How bout you play the course and then comment AFTERwards on just how things turned out?

I've found that pics can be misleading in many ways.

Gents:

Regarding the work of Ken Kavanaugh -- I really like what Vista Verde is about. No doubt there will be an evolution if / when housing is introduced to the site. Still, I'd rate it a "must play" for those heading to the area and don't want to overpay for places that are often much less in terms of oerall quality than VV.

Mark Smolens

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Re: Vista Verde January 2009 (Photos)
« Reply #18 on: February 08, 2009, 02:51:29 PM »
I've played VV six or seven times now, and fortunately have never experienced the green conditions described by Dan.  I would echo Matt Ward's characterization of VV as being a "must play."  Some of the must fun, tho challenging, green complexes in the Valley.

Phil, we have an outstanding Ken Kavanaugh design here in the Chicago area -- Orchard Valley in Aurora.  Tho it's a housing development course, which is intrusive in a couple of spots, there are a lot of fine golf holes, and a good mix of short and long par 4s on a generally very well-conditioned course.

Carl Nichols

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Re: Vista Verde January 2009 (Photos)
« Reply #19 on: February 08, 2009, 03:49:10 PM »
I played V.V. in November, just before Thanksgiving.  It was definitely firm, and the greens were in very good condition, though perhaps not as fast as some might like.  The only conditioning issue I noticed was that the fairways had quite a few bare spots.  Nothing terrible, however.

More generally, I had been meaning to start a thread on V.V. for two reasons.  First, though I thought it was a good course, I wasnīt as overwhelmed by it as others here are -- the site is pretty flat; the push-up greens seemed pretty repetitive (though they did present some interesting recovery shots); I didnīt see a ton of strategy off the tee; and itīs not very walkable.  I donīt have a comprehensive sense of the Phoenix/Scottsdale golf market; perhaps the love for V.V. is partly a recognition of the value you get compared to other courses in the area.  We paid $90 for a Sunday morning, compared to about $145 for Saguaro the day before.

Second, I donīt see how they can stay in business.  The Sunday we played, it looked like they had about 20 players for the whole day.  It also looked like they hadnīt started building any houses, and I doubt things have improved in the last three months.  If anything, I think theyīre doing a great job on the conditioning given what canīt be a robust cash flow.  Letīs hope they can stay alive until things get better.

Matt_Ward

Re: Vista Verde January 2009 (Photos)
« Reply #20 on: February 08, 2009, 06:55:33 PM »
So much of the issue with a place like Vista Verde deals with a related element that ties itself to GCA -- the guy who designed VV is just not thought of in the same manner as others who get most favored status.

Ken Kavanaugh did a superlative job -- the course provides sufficient width but you need to get to preferred areas and that demands shot shaping from the tees. There's enough length but it's not backbreaking.

To Kavanaugh's credit the greens are well defended and each is different than the others.

How things turn out is uncertain given the plunging nature of the overall housing market.

But, it's not hard to see that VV is a bargain for what it does provide. All one has to do is compare it to just about any other course in the greater Valley area to see what I am saying.

Mike McGuire

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Re: Vista Verde January 2009 (Photos)
« Reply #21 on: February 21, 2009, 08:29:06 PM »
Mike:

How bout you play the course and then comment AFTERwards on just how things turned out?

I've found that pics can be misleading in many ways.



Played VV  yesterday. The greens were excellent. Firm, fast enough and true. Fairways were decent - not too soggy - tight with a few bare spots.

There was decent activity. Plenty of golfers - A few houses going up and crews working on roads and infrastructure.

Some of our crew was not impressed. No clubhouse and no beer on the drink cart - so don't bring the pampered - but the course remains a blast to play.

Dan Moore

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Re: Vista Verde January 2009 (Photos)
« Reply #22 on: February 22, 2009, 08:49:09 AM »
Glad to hear I seem to have caught it on an off day as far as green speeds were concerned. 
"Is there any other game which produces in the human mind such enviable insanity."  Bernard Darwin

Doug Wright

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Re: Vista Verde January 2009 (Photos)
« Reply #23 on: February 23, 2009, 10:47:30 AM »
I played VV on Feb 13, and I also played it in Feb 2007 shortly after it opened. I really like this course. The greens are well defended but not abusively so--there's usually bunkering on one side and a grassy slope on the other. Lots of width off the tee but you need to position your shots properly to have a good angle. Greens are subtle and I think quite tough to putt--probably would become much easier with regular play. Conditioning and green speeds were certainly fine when I played there.

I'd rank VV with courses like Talking Stick North and Lehman's Raven at Verrado on the west side. Solid, well designed and enjoyable to play.
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