Where is the turn?

[Mark_Rowlinson]

Thinking of final greens close to the clubhouse reminded me of a couple of courses which return to the clubhouse in mid round, but not at the 9th. Sandiway returns at the 8th and Conwy at the 10th. Apart from causing a few hiccoughs when the score is written on the card for the wrong hole, is there anything particularly problematic with this? Obviously I'm not comparing these with out-and-back courses, but there do seem to be a huge number of courses on which the 9th green is contrived to be close to the clubhouse.

[Tom_Doak]

Mark:

At a private club it's important to have two potential starting points for the round.  Most people want it to be #1 and #10, but sometimes the clubhouse site does not divide the property into equal halves, and it's only prudent to settle for ten holes on one side and eight on the other.

BOTH courses at Stonewall in Philadelphia have the eighth green next to the clubhouse and a par-3 ninth hole playing away.  At first blush I thought the par-3 ninth was a bad solution, because few people want to start their round on a par-3.  But in practice, I saw many members play the ninth and then decide whether that counted, or whether it was a warm-up and they will play the ninth again at the end.  No one balked at all when the second course worked out the same way!

As we've discussed before, if there are 100 potential solutions to a routing, you have to throw out 80 of them when you insist that the ninth hole returns to the clubhouse.  I just don't think it's as important in the final analysis as it is to use the best of the 100 solutions.

[Sean_A]

Thinking of final greens close to the clubhouse reminded me of a couple of courses which return to the clubhouse in mid round, but not at the 9th. Sandiway returns at the 8th and Conwy at the 10th. Apart from causing a few hiccoughs when the score is written on the card for the wrong hole, is there anything particularly problematic with this? Obviously I'm not comparing these with out-and-back courses, but there do seem to be a huge number of courses on which the 9th green is contrived to be close to the clubhouse.

Mark

I like an even return to the house.  Anything from a 3-7 hole return is what I would consider ideal rather than an even or close to an even split.  It creates a nice boozer's loop.  The idea of returning to the house once before the 18th is a huge advantage so even if it is an even split it is better than nothing.  The difference for me is that I wouldn't really compromise the design of the course to return early like I would to return after 18.  

Ciao  

[Jon Wiggett]

Mark,

I once worked at Howley Hall just outside Leeds, England which returns to the clubhouse on the 2nd, 10th, 15th and 18th. It also has the 3rd & 6th as well as the 16th & 18th (par 3 finish) crossing. All in all some unusual features but it works very well

[Bill Shamleffer]

Perhaps the perfect routing would be the 6th hole returning to the club house, and then the next 12 resulting with the 18th also returning to the club house.  This would allow an easy 6 holes at twilight.  This would also allow early morning starts at 1 and 7, with the #7 tee reserved for those wanting to just get in a quick 12 holes so that they are not away from the family for too much of the day.

[TEPaul]

MarkR:

Happy New Year. How've you been pal? I'll catch you up one of these days on our special project that I figure you started for some of us.

This is a very good subject, and perhaps one that is pretty difficult to analyze or evaluate for a whole series of reasons.

I should point out that one of the oddest setups as to holes returning to a clubhouse (or not at the 9th for instance) is what is generally considered to be the #1 course in the world---Pine Valley.

In Crump's first initial routing attempt he actually had the present 7th hole as the 9th and it is pretty far out there in relation to the clubhouse that most certainly was not some afterthought.

I guess I've played that course hundreds and hundreds of times over the decades and not a single time when we started on the 10th were we NOT vanned out there. That also requires getting vanned back when the round is over on the 9th. I have never seen another golf club do it this way (vanning) and I'm sure most wouldn't ever want to for obvious reasons but that's the way they've done it as long as I've known the place.

To be honest with you I really wouldn't even know the best way to walk out to the 10th hole or back from the 9th but they must have done it all the time in the old days before vans were used.

The club has also always claimed that because the fourth hole returns to the clubhouse that made it convenient for groups to pick up their late players.

That returning 4th also created one of golf's greatest stories in the extraordinary stretch of birdie, birdie (I think it was birdie but it might've been eagle), ace, birdie by famous golfer J. Wood Platt, at which point he hied right off the 4th green and into the bar and got roaring drunk rather than face the ultra grueling par 3 5th the tee to which is right next to the clubhouse. (Those in the know actually say the bar part of that Platt story is made up and that Woodie actually played out the round. The bar part of the story sounds good too because one thing Woodie Platt definitely WASN'T was a teetotler ).

[john_stiles]

Didn't Arcadia Bluffs  " re-number "  their holes for better access to the clubhouse ?    I haven't played since the change in the routing sequence.

[TEPaul]

The turn at Maidstone is vaguely interesting. Sort of out and back like NGLA but not really. Merion East is kind of interesting too. In tournaments there in split starts they tend to start back nine players on the 11th.

[Tom_Doak]

Tom P:

I hope the point is not lost on people that Pine Valley, Merion, and Maidstone would not have the same holes (and would not likely be as great as they are) if the architects had forced themselves to return at #9.

If you look at the top ten courses in the world:

No returning nines:  Pebble, Cypress, St. Andrews, Dornoch, Pine Valley, Merion

Returning nines:  Shinnecock, Muirfield, Royal Co. Down, Augusta National

[George Freeman]

Tom,

Based on your first reply, as well as your knowledge of the courses listed above (and the land they're built on):  Do you think either Shinnecock, Muirfield, RCD or Augusta could have been better if the courses didn't return after the 9th hole?  i.e. do you think the architects sacrificed quality holes/routings in order to bring the course home after #9?

This is assuming that they were built with the plan of returning after #9 and that this wasn't simply the routing the architect liked most that just happened to return after #9.

Thanks,

George Freeman

[TEPaul]

"Tom P:
I hope the point is not lost on people that Pine Valley, Merion, and Maidstone would not have the same holes (and would not likely be as great as they are) if the architects had forced themselves to return at #9."


TomD:

I hope so too.

Even if we assume that some of those things were done or happened for perhaps reasons of coincidence that we may never be aware of or aware of the original reasons behind them, it seems to me the way to analyze it today is whether or not some of these things really have produced some semi-conscious dissatisfaction over time.

With Pine Valley's unique situation this way it seems to me it has all worked just fine for Pine Valley and is not something that bothers anyone who plays there. It does not bother me at all, and never has, that one needs to be vanned out to #10 without exception and vanned back from #9 at the end of the round. To me I just look at it as "That's just Pine Valley and the way it's always been." It's pretty unique and I think it's cool for that reason."

However, just because PV is that way should others blindly copy that in some way just because that course is famous? Not in my opinion, unless any other club really doesn't mind vanning players like that without exception. And that is for them to decide for themselves for their own golf club and course. It definitely isn't PV's responsibility to set some different standard if it doesn't work well for others.

But this is probably just another reason why other clubs and courses should not try to follow some of the things that a Pine Valley or other famous courses are and have always been. Clubs need to just figure out FOR THEMSELVES going in what works best for them so something doesn't become some structural pain-in-the-ass to them for the rest of time.

To me this is no different than this "Pine Valley Syndrome" bullshit about trees and blaming Pine Valley for creating it. Clubs need to just use their own heads and figure out what's best for them over time. Apparently Pine Valley did but I don't know that Crump or anyone there was trying to develop or create some "model" or "standard" for other courses as apparently a guy like Macdonald was with NGLA, not the least reason being he said so.

The only good news from what he was trying to do in that vein is his thought and idea was to create greater excellence in golf architecture in America by proposing that more golf courses should have 18 really good golf holes----SOMEHOW.

[Niall C]

Mark:

At a private club it's important to have two potential starting points for the round.  Most people want it to be #1 and #10, but sometimes the clubhouse site does not divide the property into equal halves, and it's only prudent to settle for ten holes on one side and eight on the other.

Tom,

I note what you say but I've never understood how two loops of nine, or an eight and a ten, are mean't to be a benefit to the routing of a course.

I can understand that at times a player might not want to play a full round however by effectively splitting the round it encourages players to skip in part of the way round ie no. 10, and ends up slowing play.

At my local course they used to have a traditional (for Scotland at any rate) routing where the course only came back to the clubhouse at the last hole. If you wanted to curtail your round you walked in early or skipped a few holes if there was a gap in the traffic. This was only done if you weren't going to hold up the group behind that you were jumping in front of.

A few years back they relocated the clubhouse so that the 8th and 18th holes finished at the clubhouse. Consequently a lot more players look to skip in and inevitably the hold up those behind at some point.

Is this two loops of nine idea by MacKenzie (?) a nice idea that has somehow been given more merit than it really deserves ?

Niall  

[James Boon]

I'm pretty sure that MacKenzie designed Cavendish in Derbyshire as 2 loops of nine, though it was a small walk across to the ninth green and even further to the tenth tee. However, they have rearranged the routing and the old ninth is now the seventh.

I can certainly see lots of benefits to having two loops of nine, but also don't mind the out and back routing. I do though like what I have at my home course which is the opportunity of a short walk back to the clubhouse after either three or five holes as well as having two loops of nine, as I often play 3 or 5 holes late on summer evenings when I don't manage to get a full 9 or 18 in. If it wasn't for these smaller loops I probably wouldn't even bother going to the club on such evenings.

Cheers,

James

[James Bennett]

The two poster child's that I have seen for this both have the clubhouse located slightly inside the boundary fence, not on the boundary fence.

Tea Tree Gully (Adelaide, Australia) has tees for holes 1, 7, 10, 12, 15 and 17 within 50 yards of the clubhouse/car-park precinct.  Many are within 10 yards of that precinct.  In winter, they have a multi-tee start which enables full fields of over 240 to play in full daylight on the winter solstice.

Yarra Yarra (Melbourne, Australia) has tees near the clubhouse on 1, 6, (8 is a bit far away), 10, (13 is a bit far away) and 17.  Andrew Bertram might comment if these tees are used in combination for some events, perhaps corporate outings.

For Sean Arble, one of the best 'boozer's loops' is Royal Adelaide.  The second hole returns to the clubhouse.  Have lunch and a few drinks, play 1 and 2, have a few drinks, play 1 and 2, work out how to get home, have a few drinks, play 1 and 2, have a few drinks, get that cab and/or get picked up and go home.

James B

[Kyle Harris]

Tom P:

I hope the point is not lost on people that Pine Valley, Merion, and Maidstone would not have the same holes (and would not likely be as great as they are) if the architects had forced themselves to return at #9.

If you look at the top ten courses in the world:

No returning nines:  Pebble, Cypress, St. Andrews, Dornoch, Pine Valley, Merion

Returning nines:  Shinnecock, Muirfield, Royal Co. Down, Augusta National

This seems to be more a case of utilizing the site to its best than forcing a routing. I don't think anyone would call the routings on the 4 returning nine courses "forced" into anything.

The non-returning nine are all on sites where it just wouldn't be practical and get the best golf course.

[Phil_the_Author]

For what it is worth, all four original Bethpage courses are/were out and back with the turn at far areas of the park. It was only after the redesign of the Blue Course with the new Yellow addition in the 1950's that these two courses have both 1st & 10 tees & 9th & 18th greens start and end at the parking lot.

[Jason McNamara]

For Sean Arble, one of the best 'boozer's loops' is Royal Adelaide.  The second hole returns to the clubhouse.  Have lunch and a few drinks, play 1 and 2, have a few drinks, play 1 and 2, work out how to get home, have a few drinks, play 1 and 2, have a few drinks, get that cab and/or get picked up and go home.

"I played two rounds today, dear: I shot an 8 and a 9."   

Does the train stop at the course?

[James Bennett]

Jason

The train did stop at the Club in the earlier parts of last century.  I believe I caught the train there for a junior coaching session in 1970 or so, but that was a makeshift arrangement.  There is a train stop perhaps 100 metres from the second tee, so perhaps 600 metres from the clubhouse.  I am not aware that the train is used by the members these days, but I could be mistaken.

Interesting local rules here - the railway line is an integral part of the course, but the roadway crossing the 18th (similar to the 18th at TOC) is an immovable obstruction.  So you get relief from a bitumen road where the cars will give way to you, but you either play as it lies off the railway rocks (and watch out for the tarin, as they don't give way) or take an unplayable lie.  Go figure!

James B

[Matthew Rose]

 I grew up playing a muni where #5 and #11, in addition to #9 and #18, all returned to the clubhouse. This is because the routing had been changed previously, and at one point #5 and #11 were in fact, once #9 and #18. The hole that became #9 was a bit further from the clubhouse than the others, and had previously been #16; the walk to #17 was fairly lengthy, which I presume is the reason for the change (#17 became #10).

It was nice for a muni, especially when I worked there, because you never had to go too far to find a group you were looking for, and when you were out playing by yourself, you could basically invent your own routing, since there were four or five different permutations created by all the returning loops.

[Ally Mcintosh]

BOTH courses at Stonewall in Philadelphia have the eighth green next to the clubhouse and a par-3 ninth hole playing away.  At first blush I thought the par-3 ninth was a bad solution, because few people want to start their round on a par-3.  But in practice, I saw many members play the ninth and then decide whether that counted, or whether it was a warm-up and they will play the ninth again at the end.  No one balked at all when the second course worked out the same way!

Tom,

In case you need reminding, you've more or less exactly that configuration at The Renaissance Club as well, at least from the temporary clubhouse... Although in reality, the tenth tee is just a skip away and can be reached by avoiding the ninth if so desired...

http://www.trcaa.com/golf/index.htm

[Mark_Rowlinson]

I just discovered a magazine description of a course in the Philippines (Tagaytay Highlands) when looking for something else:

'From there a kilometre-long ride in a cable car takes you back to the top for the second nine.'