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Joe Bausch

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These from the December 15, 1920 edition of the Philadelphia Public Ledger:

« Last Edit: January 16, 2009, 10:12:46 AM by Joe Bausch »
@jwbausch (for new photo albums)
The site for the Cobb's Creek project:  https://cobbscreek.org/
Nearly all Delaware Valley golf courses in photo albums: Bausch Collection

Mike_Cirba

Re: OT: some early photos of Frankford and North Hills
« Reply #1 on: January 15, 2009, 11:29:44 AM »
Joe,

You've just blown my understanding of Torresdale-Frankford CC's design evolution.

Merion pro George Sayers designed the first nine there in 1915, and then I have Donald Ross coming and revising 9 and adding 9 in 1922.

It's obvious from your pics in 1920 that 18 holes already existed, and that pic of the 9th green 10th tees look like today's.   I'm going to see if Ross came earlier.

Thanks!


Kyle Harris

Re: OT: some early photos of Frankford and North Hills
« Reply #2 on: January 15, 2009, 11:44:38 AM »
Mike,

I was thinking the very same thing. As I understood, the holes around the clubhouse were changed significantly at one point - but these look pretty much the same.

Steve_ Shaffer

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: OT: some early photos of Frankford and North Hills
« Reply #3 on: January 15, 2009, 11:53:25 AM »
From gapgolf.org

At the close of 1896, golf saw its first stirring in a section of the city that has come to be called "the great Northeast." A form letter was circulated to a number of the more prominent business and professional men there:
In response to a desire that has been frequently expressed, it is proposed to organize a Country Club at Torresdale, where Golf, Cricket, Foot-Ball, Tennis, Bicycling and other sports may be indulged in.
A preliminary meeting will be held at the Red Lion Inn on Friday evening, December 11, 1896, at 8 o’clock. Stage will meet the 7:27 train from Broad Street, at Torresdale Station ....
Twenty men attended the December 11 meeting (and six others sent their approval), at which "it was decided to form a Country Club . . . with an initiation fee of $10 and annual dues of $20." Later that same month another meeting was held to adopt by-laws. Membership categories set forth were "active, contributing, summer, bicycle, Lady, and Junior." Lady, summer, and bicycle members paid annual dues of $5; for Juniors, the charge was $2. The by-laws also stipulated that "Bicycle Members... shall not have use of grounds." The Whelen property, on Knight’s Road and "in close proximity to Colonel Morrell’s race track," was chosen as a temporary meeting place for the club (the Colonel was one of the founding members).
Six months later, the membership count had climbed to a total of 195 (123 Active, 47 Lady et al) and 15 candidates for admission were posted. But by the turn of the century, serious internal dissension had arisen and a group headed by Colonel Morrell (for a time golf had been played on the infield of his racetrack) took over. The result was fiscal soundness, a change of name to Torresdale Golf Club, and the development of a nine-hole course, which was laid out by Scottish-born professional James Campbell and the club’s green committee
insert image and caption
The course was very long for the time—3,252 yards, but, like Springhaven’s first layout, not well-balanced. The final three holes—550 yards, 500 yards, 600 yards—accounted for fully half the length. Yet nothing in the first six holes—231 yards, 206, 300, 325, 375, 165—had prepared the player for this backbreaking conclusion. There were, it should be noted, at least two members able to handle this challenge. One was George Crump, who, not ten years later, would embark almost singlehandedly on what many still consider the noblest project in the history of the game, the creation of Pine Valley. The other was Crump’s very close friend, Reverend Simon Carr, a Roman Catholic priest. In the early years of this century, it was Father Carr who held the Torresdale scoring record, a 38, which, as it happened, was also par for the course.
"Some of us worship in churches, some in synagogues, some on golf courses ... "  Adlai Stevenson
Hyman Roth to Michael Corleone: "We're bigger than US Steel."
Ben Hogan “The most important shot in golf is the next one”

Steve_ Shaffer

  • Karma: +0/-0
"Some of us worship in churches, some in synagogues, some on golf courses ... "  Adlai Stevenson
Hyman Roth to Michael Corleone: "We're bigger than US Steel."
Ben Hogan “The most important shot in golf is the next one”

Steve_ Shaffer

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: OT: some early photos of Frankford and North Hills
« Reply #5 on: January 15, 2009, 12:02:08 PM »
"Some of us worship in churches, some in synagogues, some on golf courses ... "  Adlai Stevenson
Hyman Roth to Michael Corleone: "We're bigger than US Steel."
Ben Hogan “The most important shot in golf is the next one”

Joe Bausch

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: OT: some early photos of Frankford and North Hills
« Reply #6 on: January 16, 2009, 10:02:57 AM »
The club says Ross came in 1912:

http://tfccgolf.com/tfcc/index.html?CFID=3505746&CFTOKEN=71263158

I believe the club may be off on the Ross timeline.  I have a JE Ford article from 1924 that says the "Ross course" opened in 1920.
@jwbausch (for new photo albums)
The site for the Cobb's Creek project:  https://cobbscreek.org/
Nearly all Delaware Valley golf courses in photo albums: Bausch Collection

Matt_Davenport

Re: (no longer OT!): some early photos of Frankford and North Hills
« Reply #7 on: January 16, 2009, 11:20:07 AM »
Joe,
Below is a 1919 plan for the club depicting the Ross routing.  The only significant change to the course would have been the re-location of the 17th green due to the widening of Grant Avenue along the southern boundary.

Mike_Cirba

Re: (no longer OT!): some early photos of Frankford and North Hills
« Reply #8 on: January 16, 2009, 11:29:33 AM »
Steve,

The club website is wrong, with all due respect to Dr. Martin who compiled it.   I have his booklet from about 15 years ago and there are a few bits of information that have surfaced since that make things much clearer.  

At the present site, George Sayers the pro at Merion designed nine holes around 1915.   Ross did come a bit later and revised nine and added nine.   I just thought that Ross was there around 22, not as early as 1920.

The holes that were affected by the widening of the road were 17 and 18 primarily.  17 used to be a par four, and I forget what changed on 18, but the course is about 80% as Ross left it.


Mike_Cirba

Re: (no longer OT!): some early photos of Frankford and North Hills
« Reply #9 on: January 16, 2009, 11:30:54 AM »
Matt,

That's an awesome drawing.   The only other change I recall is that the Gordon's moved the greensite on the uphill par five on the back nine (13?) according to Dr. Martin's book.

Joe Bausch

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: (no longer OT!): some early photos of Frankford and North Hills
« Reply #10 on: January 16, 2009, 11:48:11 AM »
I think you'll find the history of Torresdale and Frankford to be quite interesting, this from the December 21, 1924 issue of the North American by my pal J.E. Ford:

@jwbausch (for new photo albums)
The site for the Cobb's Creek project:  https://cobbscreek.org/
Nearly all Delaware Valley golf courses in photo albums: Bausch Collection

Matt_Davenport

Re: (no longer OT!): some early photos of Frankford and North Hills
« Reply #11 on: January 16, 2009, 11:58:53 AM »
1929 aerial courtesy of Mr. Dallin's plane and the Hagley Museum

Matt_Davenport

Re: (no longer OT!): some early photos of Frankford and North Hills
« Reply #12 on: January 16, 2009, 11:59:38 AM »
Later 1939 aerial

Kyle Harris

Re: (no longer OT!): some early photos of Frankford and North Hills
« Reply #13 on: January 16, 2009, 12:02:24 PM »
Haven't played there since 2006 - but a chainsaw would do wonders for the current course.

Mike_Cirba

Re: (no longer OT!): some early photos of Frankford and North Hills
« Reply #14 on: January 16, 2009, 12:03:36 PM »
Matt,

When did the green for #8 move across the creek?

Legend has it that Ross did it, but I don't see that in the 1939 aerial?

Thanks!

mike_malone

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: (no longer OT!): some early photos of Frankford and North Hills
« Reply #15 on: January 16, 2009, 01:45:31 PM »
 Nor  does the later photo show #8 green being moved. That is one of the worst moves made by a club that I can think of. The old green would be blind for most shots with water in the back. That is an unusual challenge that should be recovered.
AKA Mayday

Mike_Cirba

Re: (no longer OT!): some early photos of Frankford and North Hills
« Reply #16 on: January 16, 2009, 02:00:19 PM »
I'm confused, though...Joe's news article from 1924 talks about the 8th green "lies beyond a brook".

It certainly doesn't appear that way from the aerials?


mike_malone

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: (no longer OT!): some early photos of Frankford and North Hills
« Reply #17 on: January 16, 2009, 02:05:36 PM »
 Mike,

   Could the writer being speaking of a view from the clubhouse?
AKA Mayday

Mike_Cirba

Re: (no longer OT!): some early photos of Frankford and North Hills
« Reply #18 on: January 16, 2009, 02:13:41 PM »
Mike,

   Could the writer being speaking of a view from the clubhouse?

Nope...unless he was insane.  ;)

Matt_Davenport

Re: (no longer OT!): some early photos of Frankford and North Hills
« Reply #19 on: January 16, 2009, 02:36:02 PM »
Mike,
I don't have an answer on when the 8th green walked across the water but this '64 aerial shows it in its current location.  I'm working on my 1959 aerial which I also believe shows it having been moved.  I also believe it had to be an amazing hole played to the green short of the stream.

mike_malone

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: (no longer OT!): some early photos of Frankford and North Hills
« Reply #20 on: January 16, 2009, 02:42:22 PM »
 If you look at the streams at T/F you see examples of the classic architect's use of water. Only #11 was intended to have a carry to the green and that was an angled one which is more strategic.

   You had to come close to the bunkers on #8 to have a view of the green. How neat is that?
AKA Mayday