Designing New/Old courses.

[paul cowley]

The Bunker Rake Thread got me thinking again....not that I had stopped mind you!

I wish someone would let me design and build a course, and create the maintenance program for it, that would be a combination of the best of the old, while incorporating the most important elements of the newer generation.

It would have well maintained tees, and cart paths only linking greens and the next teeing area.

It would have major width in the fairways.....designed so a large flotation tired gang mower could cut right up to the entry edge of the bunkers.
The fairway height would be cut considerably higher than whats common today....you might want to retire one or two of your high lofted nip wedges in favor of a blade that puts a little punch through the grass under the ball

It would only have irrigation in the fairways....the rough would be un irrigated and planted in a regionally suitable native grass variety that would only be mown when it reached a certain height.

Bunkers would be rakeless and only groomed by the maintenance crew...probably only once a week, unless rain or other weather conditions required some touching up at an earlier interval.
The surrounds would be maintained seasonally....sometimes gnarly and at other times freshly shorn.
I would find the nearest possible sand source that met minimal needs...regardless of color.
All bunkers would be considered rough or waste areas, where one could ground a club as long as it didn't advance the ball....same rules as for rough and play thru the green.

Drainage would be designed with a minimum of catch basins in favor of long sheet flows.
Open ditches and creek features would take precedence over major sub surface drain structures.
Being able to play the course one hour after a two inch thunderstorm would rank low on the drainage priorities list.

The greens complexes and approaches are where it would shine....I'd put my money into highly maintained putting surfaces and the surrounding play areas.

I would also limit my grass choices to a minimum....two or three at best.


Just my thoughts......

[Anthony Gray]

  Paul,

 I have mentioned this before. I think by watering the fairways it takes the weather variable away. When it is dry the course should play firm and fast. Over watering has minimalized the bump and run.
 
 Also I agree with the mowline concept of no rough in front of the bunkers.


 Anthony

[Mike Nuzzo]

Paul,

I know you said design, but you might as well play one in the mean time.

Come on down - the weather is fine!
You are right it is a lot of fun.

Anthony,
He didn't say anything about using the water.... 

[Anthony Gray]

  Mike,

  He mentioned a maintenance program. I would think an old school maintenance program would not include watering the fairways.

  Anthony

[Anthony Gray]

It would only have irrigation in the fairways.....

Just my thoughts......

[Mike Nuzzo]

Anthony,

Not to be oppositional - but to share....
Having an irrigation system and watering are two different things.

Cheers

[paul cowley]

Anthony,

Not to be oppositional - but to share....
Having an irrigation system and watering are two different things.

Cheers

I'm with Mike.....having an irrigation system for most of the course is part of the New givens....but deciding how often its used [minimally] is part of the maintenance program.

Mike glad to see you are enjoying your course and the fruits of your labor!
Maybe some day.........

[Peter Pallotta]

Paul - I think someone will let you design this course, just after things pick up a little. And when they do, here's my vote for canted/sloped fairways - perhaps in conjunction with curving ("s" curve) fairways such that the curve and the slope are in opposite directions. I wouldn't have been pest-like and asked for this, except that you mentioned long sheet flows re drainage.
Oh - and because the higher fairway cut you mention could allow for a steeper slope/cant.

Peter

[Tom_Doak]

Peter:

The hole you described above is also known as the 18th at Shinnecock Hills.

And I agree, if Paul builds holes like that, his course will do very well.

[Lyne Morrison]

In his book on Sustainable Golf Courses, Ronald Dodson states....'To a great extent golf needs to return to its roots. That doesn't mean that we shouldn't use new technologies when available, but it does mean that we should remember that the true game of golf was played in nature...'

Paul, yours are good thoughts.

[paul cowley]

Lyne....it pleases me you started your first post on this thread.....welcome aboard!

[Lyne Morrison]

Paul, thank you.

[Bill_McBride]

Paul - I think someone will let you design this course, just after things pick up a little. And when they do, here's my vote for canted/sloped fairways - perhaps in conjunction with curving ("s" curve) fairways such that the curve and the slope are in opposite directions. I wouldn't have been pest-like and asked for this, except that you mentioned long sheet flows re drainage.
Oh - and because the higher fairway cut you mention could allow for a steeper slope/cant.

Peter

Also sounds like several holes at the Olympic Club Lake Course.  Those are tough tee shots......

[paul cowley]

Bill....my friend Peter was referencing one of my Strategic Template Holes....the so called Curves of Charm....the "S", "J", "C" and the "DD's".

He was adding the second either existing or built in factor that completes the equation.....topography.

We both share an appreciation of each others "game"....eh Peter?


...and yes, both Shinney and Olympic have good examples.

[Mike_Young]

Paul,
When you come up this way I need to show you Long shadow.....not to be hyping my own stuff but we did get the owner to allow only cart paths between greens and tees....and we can mow the entire width with a gang mower until we get to a high fescue rough....but there seems to be constant pressure from salesmen and supts for it to be cared for with a rough cut on each fairway side and chipping areas when it is intended for everything to be one height..., and use light weight fairway mowers etc...and the only way i knew to keep the watering to a minimum was to install a 100gpm pump station which definitely limits the water window no matter how much they want to water...........oh well..

[Mike_Young]

Bill....my friend Peter was referencing one of my Strategic Template Holes....the so called Curves of Charm....the "S", "J", "C" and the "DD's".

He was adding the second either existing or built in factor that completes the equation.....topography.

We both share an appreciation of each others "game"....eh Peter?


...and yes, both Shinney and Olympic have good examples.

Paul
I got my own red neck name for these...i call them "fall away" holes like in basetball since the fairway falls away from the intended shape of the hole....

[Bill_McBride]

Bill....my friend Peter was referencing one of my Strategic Template Holes....the so called Curves of Charm....the "S", "J", "C" and the "DD's".

He was adding the second either existing or built in factor that completes the equation.....topography.

We both share an appreciation of each others "game"....eh Peter?


...and yes, both Shinney and Olympic have good examples.

Paul, the hardest "S" curve holes I ever played were on the Azores island of San Miguel, the Furnas golf course.  This was in 1961 when I played in some matches, U.S. citizens from the USAF base against Lisbon members of Estoril.  I was a college kid there for the summer.  The course was then a nine holer, with the fairways all moss and the roughs foot deep native grasses.  At least four tee balls had to be hit across that deep rough as the fairways curved from tee to landing area.

Luckily (I guess) we had caddies, forecaddies, hangers on, looking for balls in the deep rough.  

Please promise you will keep that maintenance plan with very short rough!

[Peter Pallotta]

Paul - I have my first good design idea ever, and then Tom D tells me it's already been tried someplace else...

Lyne - yes, welcome aboard.

Peter

[Nicholas Coppolo]

Paul, 
  I love it all except the raised fairway heights!  I appreciate the thinking behind it but I wonder if there is an "old" way to have healthy turf that provided very tight lies.

[Jon Wiggett]

Nicholas,

the tightness of the lie is strongly influenced by the grass type. If you use a grass type with very dense and vertical growth characteristics then you will need to cut low. With a grass that has thinner and flat growth character then the hieght of cut can be somewhat higher for the same tight lie result.

[paul cowley]

Paul, 
  I love it all except the raised fairway heights!  I appreciate the thinking behind it but I wonder if there is an "old" way to have healthy turf that provided very tight lies.

Nicholas....that is really the problem that we find ourselves in now.

Agronomic and technological advances have allowed us to keep lowering cut height with the with the idea that 'less is mo better'.

but there are limits, and I think we are bumping into them now.....not because the Ag and Tech folks can't get them lower, they can....but why....and at what expense to the pocketbook and the Game?

When does 'less' become 'mo badder'?

No, I'd save the lower stuff for the greens complexes and go back to the fairway heights enjoyed by the Big Three of 40 years or so ago.

[paul cowley]

Paul - I have my first good design idea ever, and then Tom D tells me it's already been tried someplace else...

Lyne - yes, welcome aboard.

Peter

Peter....you need to enjoy the thrill of discovery and savour those ideas that are new to yourself, because they are the result of a deeper thought process that can get the mental adrenaline rushing and a good thing.....even if you find out later that you weren't the first to come up with them.

At least they were new to you.

[JESII]

Peter,

At least your idea was used at two world class courses...you would hate to have this idea you just love and see it in practice only to realize it was a loser...


By the way, Paul, other than your bunker preparation ideal, this course and maintenanvce routine is not too dissimilar from Huntingdon Valley with Scott Anderson calling the shots...and you can play an hour after a two-inch rain.