[George_Bahto]

I think you are thinking of Peter Lees who helped Macdonald and Raynor at Lido - CBM "stole" him Mid Surry to help on the Lido project.

[Paul_Turner]

I was given an old scrap book that someone picked up from an estate sale. It is filled with hundreds of old photos.

The ones that I have put up here are over a foot wide and 5 inches high. The gallery that printed them is stamped in the photo.

The person who made this scrap book was an architecture junkie, who collected photos, and old magazine articles.

Some of those bunkers that were built into mounds were probably piles of sand that were seeded, and after the grass grew in, the grass was edged away to reveal the sand. I can't think of how else these might have been built? I think it was the greenskeeper, whose name fails me at the moment, who was brought here to grow in Lido, who helped to develope this kind of bunkering.

These show the beginnings of MacKenzie's principles, but many of the rear guard bunkers, behind the greens in these photos, were used at Cyprus Point on a much grander scale.

I still just marvel at how elaborate this work was. When I first opened this old photo album and came across these photos, I have say that I was just completely blown away.

Bradley

Would love to see more photos from the collection, are they all from the same era?

[Mike_Cirba]

Bradley,

I agree with Paul, and your "blown away" reaction is spot on, as well.

The pictures are absolutely remarkable and I'll add my request for "more" to Paul's.   They definitely help to illustrate some of the phases of architecture of the time as well as Mackenzie's rapidly evolving style.

[Neil_Crafter]

The photo Bradley thought was from Alwoodley, and Paul and I suggested it was from Moortown - it is indeed Moortown and I found it in my reprint of "Some Essays on Golf Course Architecture". It is labelled as the Fifth Green. I had described this as the "twelfth photo".

[Tony_Muldoon]

As Neil talks about, these photos seem to be proof of the development of his style between
his first course Alwoodley, and his second Moortown.  I had read somewhere that he did put
more time and effort in to the bunkers at the second. These original photos of Alwoodley seem
rather fussy and bitty in comparison and don't reflect what’s there now.

I'm curious therefore how it's come to be that Alwoodley now has the higher reputation.  Was it
built on better land that shines through or has it been more successfully tweaked than Moortown?
If the later Mark or anyone, how much of the tweaking was the good Doctor's?



Amazing photo's thanks Bradley.

[Mark_Rowlinson]

I think one of the main differences between Alwoodley and Moortown is that very little alteration has been made to Alwoodley, whereas a lot has changed at Moortown, much of it forced on the club by the building of houses on former adjoining parts od Sand Moor and Moor Allerton. I don't know whether the fact that Moortown hosted professional tournaments and Alwoodley shunned such things (it famously turned down the Ryder Cup). Certainly MacKenzie kept making alterations to Alwoodley up to and for a few years after WW1. But as the 1920s went on he spent less time at the club, and none after his divorce. MacKenzie's 1910 map shows what had been built up to that time and what he proposed to do. I don't think all his proposals were implemented.

[Bradley Anderson]

I am traveling this weekend.

I'll respond to these by Tuesday next.

[James Bennett]

Neil/Bradley

that 7th photo with the bunker made from rocks mounded together - it is Moortown #12, the par 5 two holes after Gibralter.  I took a couple of photos of that bunker when I was there.  It is not as 'pretty' today, but the construction is intact. 

I think the 10th photo is Alwoodley #13 (one of Doak's favourite holes IIRC), not Moortown.

The 12th at Moortown is a par 5 with an uphill tee shot and a fairway cut-off.  The second shot is blind, with a skyline occurring at around 300 yards from the tee.  Very difficult to get a line on the second shot on your first visit.  Once you reach the skyline point, the view down to the green is as shown here.  The bunker is just visible on the right, with Gibralter's #10 tee just behind it.



Up close, the bunker is simpler than it once was.  A tree has grown (perhaps self-sown) from the back of the bunker.



The back of the bunker and the rocks are shown here.  I couldn't believe that such a thing would exist when I visited here back in 2005.  It makes sense to me today, but then I didn't know what to think.






James B

[Neil_Crafter]

James
Thanks for the pickup re Moortown 12th.
What makes you think the 10th photo is of of Alwoodley rather than Moortown? Looking at Mackenzie's 1907 plan the 13th hole at Alwoodley does show a circular pattern of four fairway bunkers that I suppose were made more numerous when built. I'm not certain, but on what evidence do you make your conclusion?
cheers Neil

[James Bennett]

James
Thanks for the pickup re Moortown 12th.
What makes you think the 10th photo is of of Alwoodley rather than Moortown? Looking at Mackenzie's 1907 plan the 13th hole at Alwoodley does show a circular pattern of four fairway bunkers that I suppose were made more numerous when built. I'm not certain, but on what evidence do you make your conclusion?
cheers Neil

Neil

I played the hole.  I have photos.  It also looks like the par 5 8th is in the background on the right, with the wood that has sat there for a long time just outside the out-of-bounds fence.  The photos don't have nearly enough bunkers, but the ground nearby suggests there may have been the full 'string of pearls' on the teeshot.  I have only seen such a feature twice (the other was at Muirfield on #15 - edit and of course Riviera #10.  How could I forget?).  It is not a feature soon forgotten.  I agree that the hole is not drawn as such on the map - I checked when I had the first inkling.  But my photos confirm my mind that it is #13 at Alwoodly, as long as there are some grassy hollows (ex-bunkers) abutting the current ones.

Pictures to come.  I know I have three, there may be some more from my second game there.  I need to check.  Edit - my second round has the same picture as the first!  Must have impacted upon me at the time.

From the teebox.



From the start of fairway - LHS



From the start of fairway - RHS.  Look to the right of this photo and you see the wood on the left of #8.  It suggests the original photo was taken from around the start of the fairway on the left side, angling slightly right.



James B

[Neil_Crafter]

James
OK, I'm convinced!
definitely the 13th at Alwoodley.
While it appears most of these bunkers are still there, they appear to have had their top lines squashed down since the old photos.

[Bill_McBride]

James
Thanks for the pickup re Moortown 12th.
What makes you think the 10th photo is of of Alwoodley rather than Moortown? Looking at Mackenzie's 1907 plan the 13th hole at Alwoodley does show a circular pattern of four fairway bunkers that I suppose were made more numerous when built. I'm not certain, but on what evidence do you make your conclusion?
cheers Neil

I played the hole.  I have photos.  It also looks like the par 5 8th is in the background on the right, with the wood that has sat there for a long time just outside the out-of-bounds fence.  The photos don't have nearly enough bunkers, but the ground nearby suggests there may have been the full 'string of pearls' on the teeshot.  I have only seen such a feature twice (the other was at Muirfield on #15 - edit and of course Riviera #10.  How could I forget?).  It is not a feature soon forgotten.  I agree that the hole is not drawn as such on the map - I checked when I had the first inkling.  But my photos confirm my mind that it is #13 at Alwoodly, as long as there are some grassy hollows (ex-bunkers) abutting the current ones.

I thought #15 at Muirfield was interesting in one respect.  We played the "visitor" tees off to the left, and those cross bunkers were most definitely in play for the carry off rthe tee.  But it appeared that from the medal tee, which is way off to the right and maybe 30 yards longer, they were effectively more of a left side of the fairway hazard with no carry required on tee shots down the right side.  Is my memory correct or am I all wet.  Thinking back to that big front bunker, i guess the best line off the medal tee would be up the left side, thereby bringing those bunkers into play.

[James Bennett]

Bill

you are correct about Muirfield #15, but that does not necessarily mean you are not all wet!  LOL.

Muirfield #15 deserves a thread of its own.  The two different tee angles, and the magnificent serpentine bunker on the left of the green warrant some discussion.  I'll start one soon, with appropriate pics.

James B

[Ulrich Mayring]

I can add one of hole #2, Headingley Golf Club (near Leeds). This is pretty glamorous.



Ulrich

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