Pebble Beach vs. Bethpage Black

[David Kelly]

All week I have been hearing how Bethpage Black is the first "truly public" course to host a US Open.  I guess they mean affordable when they use the word truly.

My question is for those who have not played either Bethpage Black or Pebble Beach. Not counting accomodations or travel expenses would you rather pay $350 to play Pebble Beach or pay $39 and have to sleep in the parking lot all night to play Bethpage Black.  And has what you have seen this week changed your opinion at all from what it would have been last week?

Or maybe for $250-$300 you would rather play Pinehurst #2?

[Chicago Mike]

Give me Cog Hill #4-Dubsdread.  Coming soon?

Who cares if the Open has been there or not.

[Lance]

Interesting question since I've played Pebble three times & the Black about 20 times. The Black is a tougher course, but it really isnt any visual treat in terms of scenery. Pebble's Ocean holes are worth playing even if you are having a bad golf day. If you are playing bad on the Black however, it is simply a nightmare. In the end if I only had one last round of golf to play it would be at Pebble, although the price to play a round there will probably prevent me from ever doing it again. Lance

[Anthony_Nysse]

Give me the Black!! Resort golf isn't always what golf is supposed to be like.....perfectly manicured fairways, CARTS, firm bunkers, easy pins, etc....people know that the Black is a bear...tough rough, walking only, fast greens, tough, tough, tough...let me sleep in the parking lot!!!

[A_Clay_Man]

With almost double the green size, and the extra distance the Black is providing similar leaderboard seperation. When whoever said the rough is the densest ever, I was skeptical. The rough in 2000 at PB was extremely dense. Mostly due to the el nino of a few years previous. As I recall they had to cut it down at the last minute because it was so dense.

There is no doubt that if you've never played PB the cost is insignificant compared to feelings and satisfaction one feels sitting in the tap room having a bevie after your round.

So, once is good for PB and a steady diet of the Black seems like the way to go, if your into and up for the challenge.

[Oscar Brown]

Factor in the weather. Pebble wins, hands down.

[Paul Richards]

Pebble cost me $350 last round.

Bethpage cost me $24 last time.

They both are special and they both are great.  But the
price makes a BIG difference!!

[Dave_Miller]

Bethpage can be played without sleeping in the car, if you can figure out how to use the phone in system.  No easy task but we pulled it off last summer.
If Pebble has the time of rounds under control and it is not a six hour Battan Death March.  Give me Pebble.

Cheers,
Dave Miller

[A_Clay_Man]

Pebble may soon return to the Bataan march with the takeover of CSI as caddiemaster. Reports will follow

[Matt_Ward]

Dave Miller:

From my experience at PB (a total of ten rounds in a lifetime) the pace of play there is at best horrendous. I don't know if they've since changed the policy but I am personally taken aback when a facility says you cannot play the championship markers when you are a low handicap player.

I thoroughly enjoy both courses but in dead air or relatively benign conditions I have to say BB is the better of the two. When the wind begins to howl at PB (witness the final round in '92) you have a situation where any score is in jeopardy. At BB you must hit the tee shot with the driver -- at PB the demand in hitting the driver is not as intense although a case can be made that hitting PB's small targets during any type of serious wind is definitley demanding.

Match play BB v PB

1st - BB 1 up
2nd - Even (assumes 2nd at PB played as a long par-4)
3rd - PB 1 up
4th - Even
5th - BB 1 up
6th - Even
7th - Even (assumes BB hole played as a long par-4)
8th - PB 1 up
9th - PB 2 up
10th - PB 2 up
11th - PB 1 up
12th - Even
13th - Even
14th - PB 1 up
15th - Even
16th - BB 1 up
17th - BB 1 up
18th - Even

No doubt two thoroughbreads indeed!

Can't wait for another major at BB to really juice up the rota that's being used.

[Patrick_Mucci]

Matt Ward,

With curbed cart paths, rounds at Pebble are L O N G.
Unless you're the first one out with a caddyl, or you're the last one out and you want to work on your game.

But, it's tough to beat the beauty of Pebble.

Both are great courses and one would be hard pressed not to enjoy either one.

[Joel_Stewart]

I think everyone is in TV envy watching Bethpage but lets be serious, Pebble Beach is rated the #1 or #2 course in the world.

Matt:  Why do you score the 17th holes even?  In my book 17th at Pebble wins easily.  

[David Kelly]

One problem with the match play comparison of course is that it is a binary system that doesn't take into account how much better one hole is than the other.

If you scored the holes like a boxing match and used the 10-point must system then PB #8, #9, and #14 would win 10-8 rounds at least.

[Bruceski]

DavidKelly,

But wouldn't Bethpage Black win numbers 4,5, and 12 10-8, also?

[Matt_Ward]

Joel:

I don't doubt PB's #17 in wind conditions can be extremely tough. But keep in mind #17 at BB requires a first rate approach as well. In addition, the pin placement on the right side of BB is easily more demanding than what you have at PB's hole.

I would ask you have you ever played BB's #17 since the restoration? If you take your cue from the players who played it at the Open you will find the hole requires a very high soft landing shot. Fortunately, the USGA did not stick the pin tight to the left side as I have seen many times in playing the Black.

In addition, because of the amount of rain you did not see the 17th at BB play as hard as the green can be. Balls routinely bounce over the back with any pace on them from the tee.

It's a tight call and I see it as a draw -- others I'm sure will view it to PB's advantage.

Pat:

PB plays slow beyond the cart issue. Play is just plain slow because everyone must have "their individual moment" highlighted with dozens of pictures on every hole. I wonder why the facility has not hired out an independent to take pictures of each group as they venture around the course for "their moment."

[Bob_Huntley]

If you want to play the back markers at Pebble, walk back there and tee up. If some minion objects just ignore him and play away. When paying the price of admission, there was no caveat as to where you were to play. If they persist, call  Paul Spengler, the head honcho of golf and remind him of their  contactural   obligations.

[Dan Grossman]

I guess I had a different experience from other people when I played Pebble.  I played a week before the 2001 AT&T in February.  I carried my own bag, teed off a little before 9am, and our group played in less than 4 hours.

The whole "public course" thing made me laugh everytime I saw it on TV.  I think I will have a better chance of getting on Pine Valley or Shinnecock before I get on Bethpage, especially with all the press from the 2002 Open.  Tee times will be impossible to get.

[Paul Richards]

Dan G:

As someone mentioned before, you don't have to sleep in a
car to get on Bethpage.

The phone-in system worked.  I've used it twice now, on
two seperated trips in two different years.  You just need
a bit of flexibility on times and dates and a fast-dialing-finger.

The second time we called the day before we wanted to
play and got a foursome on!

[David Kelly]

The only time I played Bethpage Black was in the late 80s and a friend and I just walked up and played. In fact there was hardly anyone out on the course that day and it was mid-summer.

[DMoriarty]

All week I have been hearing how Bethpage Black is the first "truly public" course to host a US Open.  I guess they mean affordable when they use the word truly.

I think that by "truly public" they mean owned and operated by the state or a municipality (theoretically, owned by the people.)  Think of Rancho Park vs. Lost Canyons.

I also played Bethpage without a tee time, and it was after the restoration.  It was during the week and I just showed up as a single.  I dont know if I got really lucky or if it usually possible to get out during the week.  

[Scott_Burroughs]

Semantically speaking, "truly" public means publicly owned and run, as Bethpage is a State Park, i.e. a "muni".  Pebble and Pinehurst are privately owned resorts.  Broadly speaking, "truly" public was also being used to mean "affordable" to the masses.

In terms of Pebble's playing time, my one round there 4 years ago on a Sunday morning lasted max 5 hours.  Me and another sharing a caddie and two other guys in separate carts.  Being a first timer, I didn't mind 5 hours so I could enjoy the sights.

Also, no one objected when the other guy who shared the caddie with me and I played the tips.  The starter was a little hesitant, but it was no real problem.  He just didn't want to move from his perch between the blues and whites .

I probably enjoyed The Black just as much as Pebble, despite rain on about 6 holes at the Black.

I also did not sleep in my car to play there two Septembers ago.  I had a 4:12 tee time through the system (only enough daylight for 9), got there at noon, and got a 1:30 tee time after an entire 4-some didn't show.  All 4 of us were first timers to the Black and otherwise walk-up singles.  We all were like kids in a candy store how we enjoyed the course.

It doesn't hurt that most who play there would be walking anyways, w/o the rule.  Playing a course where everyone walks and carries because they want to is special.  At my club, probably less than 10% of all players walk, so it is a big deal to me for everyone to play the "right" way.

For the money, give me the Black any day.