[Matt_Cohn]

How about Olympic, except you're in the US Open and you start on #10?

Ditto for #10, 11, 12 at Bethpage Black.

[Jeff Tang]

Both Devries courses I've played (Kingsley Club and Greywalls) have great opening three hole stretches, especially the first holes.  I wouldn't call them the most challenging but if the thread was "great" opening three hole stretches you could include both of the courses.

[Adam Clayman]

How quickly any discussion of challenge turns into a difficulty chest beat. It's another example of difficulty's over-ratedness and futility in trying make it sound like quality.

How about the opening stretch that's most compelling, or, the stretch you not only have to execute, but think?
i.e. Holes like the 13th at Lawsonia where brains beat brawn, every time. Even the first at Crystal Downs penalizes the aggressive, while rewarding the virgin player who is lucky enough to come up short. 

[Patrick Kiser]

Tom,

Now you're making me work by digging out the box of scorecards...

1... 2... 3... 4...  Played Pasa 4 times (all since 2005) and carded two 4's and two 5's 

Ok, obviously not 50 times to really build up a stat.

Let's put it this way, relative to making par then I'll say yes the 1st is no gimme.  But when I read challenging opening 3-hole, my sick mind immediately interpreted that to mean how easy it is to turn par into double or triple for each hole.

Given my last statement, I actually find it more likely to run up double or triple on the 2nd or 3rd at Pasa than the 1st.  At least that's my gut feeling.  Double checking the scorecards now and well ... inconclusive.  Some pars and bogeys and one double on the 2nd.

Interesting how your stat shows the opposite for the 2nd relative to the 1st.

Patrick:  do you routinely make fours?  I've probably played the course 50 times, and I can count the number of 4s on one hand... and that includes at least 10 rounds in its most recent (and certainly easiest) form.  I'm a 4.5 index.  I make way way way more 4s on #2.

As for its difficulty, I guess it depends on how one looks at it.  If you look at it such that 5 is a good score (as one really should) then perhaps it's not.

What kinda scores do you achieve there?

[Patrick Kiser]

Submitted twice by accident...

[Tom Huckaby]

Patrick:

Thanks.  I was gonna fully capitulate if you had made a string of 4s or lower.  But two 4s and two 5s is pretty damn good also - you're playing it way better than I am!

I just truly do see a lot more double or worse potential on 1 than 2 also.  Think about it... OB left is VERY much in play on 1, on 2 it takes an extremely wild shot.  Trees right are pretty equal in terms of penalty on each.  2 fairway is much wider than 1....  Both greens are very difficult; 2 has more severe contour.

Heck they're both tough holes as I see it.  It's just that for most people anyway, it's pretty tough to miss 2 fairway - all the difficulty is at the green.  1 has a difficult tee shot, approach, and the green isn't easy.

But again, perhaps it does just come down to personal experience.  I can't recall making many 6s on 2, whereas I sure as heck have made a lot (or worse) on 1.  Two bleeds out bogeys for sure for me - more than pars without a doubt - but I just don't tend to make the high number there.  I'd be interested in Rob Chestnut's take on this though - he's surely played these holes more than anyone here.


Adam:

It's not chest-beating at all; it's just a different question.  Mike asked for the most challenging opening three-hole stretch.  It's hard for me to see how that is not a question of how difficult the golf holes are... Is your issue that challenge does not equal difficult?  That is an interesting question, worthy of a separate thread.  But Mike didn't ask for best, most fun, highest quality... he asked for most challenging.  And at least to me, that meant how difficult the golf holes are. "Most compelling" as also a totally different question.

TH

[tlavin]

Sand Hills is a good choice.  Coming from a position of admitted self-bias, I'll also suggest the "new" South Course at Olympia Fields:

#1:  465 yd. par 4 with two huge bunkers guarding the best approach to the devilishly tricky green that sits atop a big swale in front.

#2:  490 yard par 4, slight dogleg to the left, with a creek 60 yards in front and to the left of a well-bunkered green.

#3:  190 yard uphill par 3 with a gaping bunker left and a blind view to a very tricky putting surface.

It just might be the toughest starting three holes in Chicago.

[J_ Crisham]

Terry,  I would agree that the openers on the OFCC South are a kick in the teeth. I was also thinking of the opening 3 at Evanston Golf Club. I feel their addition of some new fairway bunkers has made this as tough a stretch in Chicago.
                                             Jack

[mark chalfant]

Wakonda, an excellent  design by Langford & Moreau, starts with a long par that requires a precise apporoach to a perched green . The second is a semiblind uphill hole of 190 yards. The third at this great  Iowa course is another long four that tumbles over rugged land to a sharply elevated green.  A very taxing trio !!

[Tiger_Bernhardt]

I just finshed playing at Champions. The first 3 there on either nine may not be WFW but are really strong holes which test the focus of the player and his game from moment one. I am scared with the doubles I have taken on 1 without really seeing it coming.

[Matt OBrien]

Centenial course at Huntingdon Valley CC. If you get through these 3 even or even 2 over then you have done something right.

I would pout oakmont second to those 3

[Gerry B]

terry:

local bias prevented me from listing the opening stretch at the recently redesigned ofcc south - one can shoot some big numbers early with that start

Tom Doak: I respecrfully disagree re:  The Oakmont start vs the Chicago Golf Club start.  I have witnessed numerous players at Oakmont make par from the 9th fairway after snap hooking thier drives - yes the right side is a potential disaster  / plus if one plays it safe off the tee - the 2nd shot plays much shorter than the yardage due to the downhill /  # 2 is a short hole and the big hitters can hit a utility  wood or iron off the tee and still only have a short iron in / i agree  #3 is a beast of a hole. Yes the green speeds are the challenge  - but that is oakmont.

The sheer length of the 2 opening par 4's at chicago golf club make for a big challenge especially for the medium hitter - hit a 250 yd drive and you still have a fairway wood / utility wood in - plus the green on #2 with the severe false front makes for a very tough challenge. add in a 220 yd par 3 with the sheer green size does not guarantee par even if one is on the dancefloor in regulation.


re: Olympic - i disagree as the opening par 5 is not that difficult imho - and i am not a long hitter by todays standards - yes holes 2 and 3 are brutes as are the next 3. if i were to compare the opening 3 holes vs its neighbour the san francisco gc - i would say that the 3 holes at sfgc are just as hard - assume hole one is a  toss up / hole 2 at sfgc is tougher and hole 3 at sfgc is no picnic either.

imho if a course opens with a medium length par 5 -where one can still recover and make par is much easier than having a brutish opening par 4

[Wade Whitehead]

Royal New Kent.  Those first three are MURDER.

I second this.  Replace any of the three with an easy hole and it would still rank.

WW

[John Goodman]

I'd concur with RNK too.

Some others that for my money have testing starts:

Enniscrone
Lahinch (boy is that first green hard to hit)
Walton Heath (Old)
Any number of the RTJ Trail courses start out tough - the Judge and Fighting Joe come to mind.

[Jim Franklin]

I have played nearly every course mentioned and I will go with Baltimore CC (Five Farms).

#1 - 460 uphill par 4
#2 - 496 slightly downhill par 4 (these were actually 17 & 18 for the Seniors event)
#3 - 443 par 4 with a severely canted green.

It is a brutal start.

[Cory Lewis]

I gotta be a homer and agree with Lester and say DuPont:

Hole 1:  #3 handicap hole, dogleg left, 452, usually into the wind

Hole 2:  #1 handicap hole, dogleg right, 438, green that slopes severely from front to back

Hole 3:  #5 handicap hole, dogleg left, 432, uphill with a tremendous green.

[Ed Oden]

I have played nearly every course mentioned and I will go with Baltimore CC (Five Farms).

#1 - 460 uphill par 4
#2 - 496 slightly downhill par 4 (these were actually 17 & 18 for the Seniors event)
#3 - 443 par 4 with a severely canted green.

It is a brutal start.

Jim, I was wondering when you were going to chime in.  I haven't played Oakmont or Winged Foot.  But I wholeheartedly agree about Five Farms.  It is hands down the most challenging opening stretch I have played.  Much more so, in my opinion, than a number of other courses mentioned in this thread.  For those who recall how difficult the closing holes were in the most recent Senior Players Championship, its worth noting that #1 and #2 were actually played as the 17th and 18th holes.

Ed

[Kalen Braley]

Another bay area course, while not in the league of Pasa, is a tough start.

Tilden Park.

1)  Long par 4 that plays straight up the hill, hands down toughest hole on the course.
2)  A severe dog leg left 4 that is really easy to lose either left or right of the fairway in the thick shrubs/forest.
3)  A par 4 - Yes I know it plays way downhill, but there is trouble on both sides of the fairway that are potential ball losers as well.  And even a simple wedge shot can be tough due to a severly downhill lie into a green with a creek behind.

[Jim Franklin]

I have played nearly every course mentioned and I will go with Baltimore CC (Five Farms).

#1 - 460 uphill par 4
#2 - 496 slightly downhill par 4 (these were actually 17 & 18 for the Seniors event)
#3 - 443 par 4 with a severely canted green.

It is a brutal start.

Jim, I was wondering when you were going to chime in.  I haven't played Oakmont or Winged Foot.  But I wholeheartedly agree about Five Farms.  It is hands down the most challenging opening stretch I have played.  Much more so, in my opinion, than a number of other courses mentioned in this thread.  For those who recall how difficult the closing holes were in the most recent Senior Players Championship, its worth noting that #1 and #2 were actually played as the 17th and 18th holes.

Ed

Like I said Ed, I have played most of the biggies that people have named and our start at Five Farms is tougher than any of the others. Wannamoisett is on par with the first two, but not the third. Oakmont is a harder first hole, but two allows an iron off the tee so you can come in with a wedge. Granted it is still a hard hole, but not like #2 at Five Farms. Winged Foot West is another great start, but I think ours is a little more challenging there as well.

[Deucie Bies]

   I have witnessed numerous players at Oakmont make par from the 9th fairway after snap hooking thier drives - yes the right side is a potential disaster  / plus if one plays it safe off the tee - the 2nd shot plays much shorter than the yardage due to the downhill /  # 2 is a short hole and the big hitters can hit a utility  wood or iron off the tee and still only have a short iron in / i agree  #3 is a beast of a hole. Yes the green speeds are the challenge  - but that is oakmont.

Although number 2 at Oakmont is a short par 4, there is plenty of trouble to be found off the tee with the bunkers right (and if you hit it in one of the bunkers, it is nearly impossible to reach the green) and the fescue left.  In addition, going over the green into the back bunker or fescue brings a high number very much into play.  I have not played Chicago Golf, Five Farms or Winged Foot West, but it is hard for me to imagine a harder start than Oakmont.  Please also note that those 3 holes are the #1, 5 and 3 handicap hole respectively on a course I think we would all agree is extremely difficult.   

[Mark Arata]

The first 3 at Fishers Island are not that easy.....

Prairie Dunes is pretty good too if, the 3rd is a challenge from the back tees when the wind is up.....

[Ian Dalzell]

How about the opening 3-holes at Portstewart - arguably the best opening hole in golf, for playability and aesthetically, follwed up by a tough par-4 2nd and a long par-3 third.

Par-Par-Par is a great start!

[David_Madison]

What about challenging opening stretches on the back 9?  

Shinnecock Hills - #10 is well known for its challenges; #11 is as tough a par-3 as you'll ever see; and #12 is no picnic either

[Deucie Bies]

What about challenging opening stretches on the back 9?  

Shinnecock Hills - #10 is well known for its challenges; #11 is as tough a par-3 as you'll ever see; and #12 is no picnic either

Agreed!!!

[Gerry B]

good call on five farms east - a really tough start

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