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Joel_Stewart

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Are double greens a gimmick
« on: June 18, 2002, 05:32:05 PM »
I've played a few modern courses the last couple of years and have concluded that double greens are a gimmick.  Attached is a photo on the Cliffs Course at Olympic that Weiskopf did which is pretty good but I haven't found any others really to mention.



http://home.earthlink.net/~tommy_n/JoelStewart/Dcp_0050.jpg[/img
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »
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Jeff_Brauer

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Re: Are double greens a gimmick
« Reply #1 on: June 18, 2002, 05:39:42 PM »
It appears from the photo that this is a double green for one hole, rather than two greens connected, which is either a gimmick, if done any time after St. Andrews, or not, if done at the home of golf. ;)

The double could have strategic value, but I can't tell from the photo.  I am considering one right now (but the owner is dubious) where you can only hit the left portion of the green from the right fairway, and the right from the left is more advantageous.

It could also serve the purpose of making a resort course play differently on consecutive days, which may entice a stayover to play again.  In any case, variety in play is never a bad thing, really, is it?  That also entered my mind in proposing the double green.

So, a gimmick?  Yes, probably.  Is that a bad thing?  What if we called it a "conversation peice" a la the sixth at Riviera?
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »
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Kevin_Reilly

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Re: Are double greens a gimmick
« Reply #2 on: June 18, 2002, 05:56:57 PM »
The right side of the green is the green for the 5th hole.  The left side is the green for the 7th hole.  The photo does not do justice to the width of the green.  The bunker in the middle really is intended to be only in play on the 7th (though I'm sure it has been hit by those on the 5th as well).
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »
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"GOLF COURSES SHOULD BE ENJOYED RATHER THAN RATED" - Tom Watson

ian

Re: Are double greens a gimmick
« Reply #3 on: June 18, 2002, 07:01:24 PM »
No,

They can be done poorly, just like any other design element. If there is only one it often feels like a gimmick though.
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »
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Mike_Cirba

Re: Are double greens a gimmick
« Reply #4 on: June 18, 2002, 07:09:17 PM »
A gimmick?

If they aren't found at the Old Course, yes they are! ;)

However, that doesn't mean that one can't design a good, interesting, fun double green, gimmicky though it may be.  Among the best modern ones I've seen are Robert Trent Jones Jr.s' 9th/18th combo at Edinburgh USA, which are approached from opposite directions to a wild green, Raymond Hearn's ultra-wide, shallow green servicing two holes on the back nine at Sea Oaks in New Jersey, and I still haven't made up my mind on the HUMUNGOUS double green serving the 2nd & 13th holes at Sand Barrens, also in NJ.  I think it's somewhere around 20,000 square feet, which seems to me excessive.  

I HATE the ones the wrap around water, ala the 9th and 18th at Grand Cypress.  
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »
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Dave_Miller

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Re: Are double greens a gimmick
« Reply #5 on: June 18, 2002, 07:09:58 PM »
Joel:  
The first double green I ever saw was at the old "Jersey Devil" Course which I believe is Avalon Golf Club today. (Maybe Stone Harbor not sure of the name changes in the last 15 years. Some others may know)
9 & 18 shared a green.  It really wasn't, as I remember, that gimmicky but if you were on the wrong one you needed a driver or at least a 1 iron (who can hit a 1 iron) to make that putt.

Jeff:  As Kevin points out this is two greens.  If you look very closely you can see the flag on the far green.

Best to all,
Dave
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »
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Mike_Cirba

Re: Are double greens a gimmick
« Reply #6 on: June 18, 2002, 07:16:18 PM »
Dave,

Yeah, the ole "Jersey Devil",  course is now Desmond Muirhead's Stone Harbor GC, which opened in 1988.  I never did get to play the old one, which I believe was also named "Stone Harbor Golf course", although known better by its nickname.  Did the old course have any interest?  

Avalon GC is up the road, built by a bunch of Philly area PGA pros and designed by one of them (Bob Hendricks) in the early 70s.  
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »
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Joel_Stewart

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Re: Are double greens a gimmick
« Reply #7 on: June 18, 2002, 07:39:51 PM »
I feel empowered that I borrowed a digital camera and was snapping like crazy so I agree that this isn't the best angle.  I tried a few others but they didn't work out.  The problem with these two holes is that they play in the same direction and depending on the tees about the same length.  

Jeff.  I don't suggest it just because the two greens are close to each other.  Perhaps if they didn't intrude on each other and played in the opposite directions it may work.
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »
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Dave_Miller

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Are double greens a gimmick
« Reply #8 on: June 18, 2002, 07:58:38 PM »
Mike C:
Have not played the old "Jersey Devil" since the late 70's or very early 80's. Probably '80 at the latest.  Yes, it was Stone Harbor Golf Club.  
The old course as I remember was fun and if we went out in the early evening during the week (In those days we were just out of college and had a summer house in Avalon) we would sometimes play the same par 3  eight or ten times as we were sure we could just do this until dark.  Try that today anywhere.  Sure helped hone the old game for the "short hole".
Would be fun to go back and do it again.  Play the course that is.

Best
Dave
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »
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Paul Turner

Re: Are double greens a gimmick
« Reply #9 on: June 18, 2002, 08:42:48 PM »
How many courses in GB&I have double greens?  Other than TOC, I can only recall Carnoustie and Loch Lomond.  There must be a few more in Scotland, but maybe not.
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »
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Tommy_Naccarato

Re: Are double greens a gimmick
« Reply #10 on: June 18, 2002, 09:44:54 PM »
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »
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A_Clay_Man

Re: Are double greens a gimmick
« Reply #11 on: June 18, 2002, 09:58:44 PM »
BWR has a great true double green which just happens to be the 18th hole for the two different courses River and Meadow-Valley. When it was one course it was # nine and eighteen, Awesome.

In Palm springs, Cimmaron had a couple that I never saw because someone changed their mind and grew the grass in between them. BOO

At Paa Ko Ridge, On the 4th hole Ken Dye couldn't decide between two greensites for the Par 3, so he combined them and has a 100 yd deep one with a 13 foot elevation change, FUN  BTW- The hole's name is Dye-abolical
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »
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Joel_Stewart

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Re: Are double greens a gimmick
« Reply #12 on: June 18, 2002, 10:05:35 PM »
Thanks Tommy.

Kevin:
I have never seen anyone in the bunker in the middle of the green.
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »
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Tommy_Naccarato

Re: Are double greens a gimmick
« Reply #13 on: June 18, 2002, 10:15:46 PM »
Joel, The Reserve at the Vineyard's Fought Course also has a double green similar to this where a bunker is more or less used to separate the two surfaces to some degree.

Now I know we talked of the Vineyard's Cupp Course, and while I would rate it as one of the most absurd greens I have seen in my 43 years, the Fought's double is pretty good.

Does it belong?

Not really, but I know of at least 400 (A underestimate) Ted Robinson greens in the Coachella Valley that it blows away.

« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »
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Tom Doak

Re: Are double greens a gimmick
« Reply #14 on: June 19, 2002, 12:22:03 PM »
Absolutely they are a gimmick.  They love to mention them in marketing brochures, but you have to keep the two playing areas fairly well separated for safety reasons, so the connection is just a waste of space which makes circulation more difficult.

The double greens at The Old Course evolved because of traffic concerns, and are the one exception to the rule.
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »
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D. Kilfara

Re: Are double greens a gimmick
« Reply #15 on: June 19, 2002, 05:59:14 PM »
I should point out that the 3rd and 15th greens on the New Course in St. Andrews form a double green as well. And quite an unusual one, too, in that while the 15th green is to the right of the 3rd green (as the golfer playing the 3rd hole would view it), the 3rd green is behind the 15th green (as the golfer playing the 15th hole would view it), i.e. the angles of approach are more or less perpendicular to one another.

Cheers,
Darren
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »
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Joe Hancock

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Re: Are double greens a gimmick
« Reply #16 on: June 19, 2002, 06:24:47 PM »
Grand Cypress has some double greens that I feel are very fun to play. You know where your supposed to be, but some of those errant shots can give you some wonderfully imaginative putts. I love to play them, but would shudder to know what the cost of maintenance is, because they're HUGE!

http://www.grandcypress.com/golfclub/holes-new.htm

Joe
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »
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" What the hell is the point of architecture and excellence in design if a "clever" set up trumps it all?" Peter Pallotta, June 21, 2016

"People aren't picking a side of the fairway off a tee because of a randomly internally contoured green ."  jeffwarne, February 24, 2017

Paul Richards

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Are double greens a gimmick
« Reply #17 on: June 20, 2002, 08:46:01 AM »
An interesting double-green concept is Pete Dye's 18th
double-green finishing complex at the Blackwolf Run's Meadows and River Courses.

« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »
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"Something has to change, otherwise the never-ending arms race that benefits only a few manufacturers will continue to lead to longer courses, narrower fairways, smaller greens, more rough, more expensive rounds, and other mechanisms that will leave golf's future in doubt." -  TFOG
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