[Jeff Goldman]

What's the difference between an owner-dictator of a public or private course and a dictator of a member-owned coure?  Both have control over the operations, for good or ill.

I relied on statements by Tom Doak and a couple other sources for Mr. Dey's control over the work at at the Creek Club

Was Hootie Johnson merely a figurehead at Augusta?  Not according to sources on this site or general views of the club.  What committees were responsible for the revisions?  Pat, you would know better than I would.  Also, was Roberts not answerable to Bobby Jones at all?  And what about his control over the course?  Was he responsible for the changes to the eight hole?

Have the changes to Riviera been for the better?  Not according to Geoff Shackelford, who has backed up his views with very close analysis of the course and the changes.  Whether it remains a great course, despite the changes, and whether any of us would like to be a member is not relevant to whether the dictator has exercised appropriate control over the course.

Sorry Pat, but limiting the discussion to only "benevolent" dictators is dumb.  The question is whether a dictatorship is more beneficial for a course and club than more diffuse member or committee control.  Otherwise, I say that having "benevolent" tennis players control golf clubs is good, since I can define benevolent however I want.  Benevolent anything is fine.

Patrick, you have expressed admiration for Dick Wilson's work. Is it a good thing that  his work on that course is basically gone?  Would a benevolent dictator think that having the course as a pga tour venue is more important than preserving Wilson's work? If Deepdale decided to have a tourney, would it be ok if the benevolent dictator there wipe out the course's character?



 

[Ronald Montesano]

No, see, this goes awry again, Jeff.  I didn't ask for "what ifs."  What I wanted, plain and simple, is facts.  Patrick operates with facts which, like it or not, makes his posts read in a blunt and straight-forward manner.  Who are the specific benevolent dictators from the final three clubs you mentioned?  Clearly there were some failures at those clubs and I'd like to know if these failures can be directly attributed to benevolent dictators.

[Patrick_Mucci_Jr]

What's the difference between an owner-dictator of a public or private course and a dictator of a member-owned coure?  Both have control over the operations, for good or ill.

Not really.
An owner who is a dictator, benevolent or otherwise, can't be removed.
At a member owned club, the dictator, benevolent or otherwise can be removed.

I relied on statements by Tom Doak and a couple other sources for Mr. Dey's control over the work at at the Creek Club

What work ?

You can't equate a project chairman with a dictator.
I don't know if he was the project chairman.
I'd like to have those familiar with The Creek tell us about Dye's role in club affairs, and whether or not he WAS the club's dictator, and, whether or not the club even operated as a dictatorship.

Was Hootie Johnson merely a figurehead at Augusta? 


I don't believe so, but, I also believe that he WASN'T a dictator at ANGC.

Not according to sources on this site or general views of the club. 


What sources ?

What committees were responsible for the revisions? 


I would imagine that decisions on the golf course transcend committee involvement and reside with the board.

Pat, you would know better than I would. 

Also, was Roberts not answerable to Bobby Jones at all? 


From what I understand, not to any great degree.
Roberts's authority seems to have resided solely within his whims.

And what about his control over the course? 


It's my understanding that nothing happened to the golf course without his approval.

Was he responsible for the changes to the eight hole?

Which ones, there have been many.

Net, net, I don't know that # 8 has been changed all that much.

Have the changes to Riviera been for the better?  Not according to Geoff Shackelford, who has backed up his views with very close analysis of the course and the changes.  Whether it remains a great course, despite the changes, and whether any of us would like to be a member is not relevant to whether the dictator has exercised appropriate control over the course.


I'm aware of Geoff's opinions regarding Riviera.

Whether the course remains a great course, despite the changes, is relevant to the issue.

How has the owner's control been exercised in an inappropriate way ?

And, don't view the issues in the sole context of the golf course, you have to examine the entire operation of the club.

Lastly, you can't compare and owner to a benevolent dictator at a member owned club, they are two dramatically different breeds of cat.

Sorry Pat, but limiting the discussion to only "benevolent" dictators is dumb. 

No it's not.
That's the ESSENCE of the issue, a BENEVOLENT dictator.

Ron initially asked:
"Can any participant in this great debate give examples of clubs where benevolent (or otherwise) dictatorships caused negative consequences?"

I don't equate OWNERS with BENEVOLENT DICTATORS.
They are different in many ways.

The question is whether a dictatorship is more beneficial for a course and club than more diffuse member or committee control.  Otherwise, I say that having "benevolent" tennis players control golf clubs is good, since I can define benevolent however I want.  Benevolent anything is fine.

Jeff, that's an absurd example or analogy, and clearly not applicable.
Can you name just ONE case where the above exists ?

Patrick, you have expressed admiration for Dick Wilson's work. Is it a good thing that  his work on that course is basically gone? 

I don't think so, especially since I'm a big fan of Dick Wilson's work.

Would a benevolent dictator think that having the course as a pga tour venue is more important than preserving Wilson's work?


You keep inserting an owner in place of a benevolent dictator.
An owner has a DIFFERENT AGENDA than a DICTATOR, especially a BENEVOLENT DICTATOR.   The OWNER at Cog Hill has/had a keen financial interest in the club and attracting a PGA Tour Event.

If Deepdale decided to have a tourney, would it be ok if the benevolent dictator there wipe out the course's character?

Once again, you've confused a club owned by an owner with a club owned by the members.  The two are not interchangeable and have different agendas.
 

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