Is this a unique architectural feature?

[Bart Bradley]

On my summer vacation, my son and I played and really enjoyed Leatherstocking golf club in Cooperstown, NY.  I highly recommend this Emmet gem.

On the par 5 15th there is a significant short downslope in front of the green to help feed running balls onto the green.  Aerial approaches would run the risk of hitting this downslope and kicking over the back of the green which has a similar dramatic drop off... I have never seen a green with these features...Fill me in.  Where else does something like this exist?  P.S.  I thought it was really cool...Here are some pics to illustrate this feature:


View from behind the green looking back toward fairway:





View of slope over the green:




It may well be that this feature exists all over the Northeast where my experience is the least.  But I look forward to your discussion and opinion about this feature.

Bart

[Jeff_Mingay]

The par-3 8th hole at Blackhawk GC in Edmonton, AB has similar features... a pretty significant downslope in the approach, just short of the green, and a significant drop-off behind the putting surface. (Neat hole, actually!)

[Bart Bradley]

Jeff:

I can't tell from your picture...is there a steep drop off in front of the green or is it just gradually downhill...the Leatherstocking green is actually blind from the fairway...it is not a downhill approach and you can't see the green surface.  The drop off is more than a 45 degree angle.

Bart

[Sean_A]

Bart

I don't think this is unique at all.  Pennard's 4th has a sharpish drop to the green with a front to back running green and "crap in the rear".  Deal also has a par 5 on the front 9 which has the sharp drop to the green. 

Ciao

[Bart Bradley]

Bart

I don't think this is unique at all.  Pennard's 4th has a sharpish drop to the green with a front to back running green and "crap in the rear".  Deal also has a par 5 on the front 9 which has the sharp drop to the green. 

Ciao

Thanks, Sean...I haven't been to Pennard or Deal.

Bart

[Jeff_Brauer]

Langford's 11th at Wakonda in Iowa is similar, with a cross slope.  There is a sunken green at N Berwick, but with a wall that would really deflect balls.

All sorts of gca's from the Golden Age write about mounds and slopes just short of the green that might either propel the ball forward or knock it back.  Hurdzan wrote about it in his book, too.  I don't think its used much anymore, but Jay Morrish seemed to have put a small knob in front of at least one green per course.  Besides the aerial game, more earthmoving and an emphasis on visibility and drainage compared to the old days had made this sort of old fashioned.

Looks like another feature that could be primed for a comeback, though!  One worry is the "wet approaches" as discussed earlier.

[Jeff_Mingay]

Bart,

The approach at Blackhawk's 8th hole isn't as abrupt as your example, from Leatherstocking, looks; but, it's still pretty steep. And, it certainly complicates the approach to this green in seemingly similar fashion.

[Pete_Pittock]

The 17th at Tetherow. Many threads.

[Bill_McBride]

Langford's 11th at Wakonda in Iowa is similar, with a cross slope.  There is a sunken green at N Berwick, but with a wall that would really deflect balls.

All sorts of gca's from the Golden Age write about mounds and slopes just short of the green that might either propel the ball forward or knock it back.  Hurdzan wrote about it in his book, too.  I don't think its used much anymore, but Jay Morrish seemed to have put a small knob in front of at least one green per course.  Besides the aerial game, more earthmoving and an emphasis on visibility and drainage compared to the old days had made this sort of old fashioned.

Looks like another feature that could be primed for a comeback, though!  One worry is the "wet approaches" as discussed earlier.

Could come back so long as the feature is existing and not bulldozed away during construction!  What fun that would be, to leave a neat slope like that.

[Trey Kemp]

The 2nd, 5th and 13th holes at Oklahoma City Golf & Country Club all have this type of feature.  Perry Maxwell did a great job incorporating this type of feature into these holes.  Hole 2 and 5 are two of my favorites on the course.

[Adam Clayman]

I"m shocked Jeff didn't mention Thompson's 13th (?) at Jasper. The mother of all severe downslopes in front of a green. Even more than the one on Poopy Hills 1st.

[JMorgan]

Here's a side view:



(The wind she be blowin' off the lake that day.)

[Bart Bradley]

I"m shocked Jeff didn't mention Thompson's 13th (?) at Jasper. The mother of all severe downslopes in front of a green. Even more than the one on Poopy Hills 1st.

Adam:

I've played Jasper (not that long ago) and I sure didn't remember that feature but you are correct...it is certainly similar...I guess that just shows how much closer I pay attention to architectural details since I joined this group (or how much dementia I have  ).  I will say that I liked 13 at Jasper as well and obviously this feature is not unique.  It does not seem to be incorporated in modern courses as Jeff stated above...I hope we'll see it more.

Bart

[Sean_A]

Langford's 11th at Wakonda in Iowa is similar, with a cross slope.  There is a sunken green at N Berwick, but with a wall that would really deflect balls.

All sorts of gca's from the Golden Age write about mounds and slopes just short of the green that might either propel the ball forward or knock it back.  Hurdzan wrote about it in his book, too.  I don't think its used much anymore, but Jay Morrish seemed to have put a small knob in front of at least one green per course.  Besides the aerial game, more earthmoving and an emphasis on visibility and drainage compared to the old days had made this sort of old fashioned.

Looks like another feature that could be primed for a comeback, though!  One worry is the "wet approaches" as discussed earlier.

Jeff

I hope stuff like this feature come back - it sure beats yet another green fronted by bunkers.  Surely archies can find a way to drain this sort of feature correctly.  In general there is not enough use of the space behind greens as the main trouble for approaching.

Ciao

[Ally Mcintosh]

I would have thought that this was a prevalent feature in the UK... It certainly is a feature I often think about... It has always seemed a perfect defense (and deception) technique to me, site and drainage permitting...

[Adam Clayman]

 It does not seem to be incorporated in modern courses as Jeff stated above...I hope we'll see it more.

Bart, As intimated in my post by mentioning Poppy Hills this feature has been utilized in modern designs.
Come to think of it, with many of the punchbowl greens being built, almost all of them have a very similar effect. To name a few holes... The 5th at Wild Horse, the 3rd and 15th at Ballyneal. Perhaps not the exact same, but as I said, essentially the same characteristics where playing short is a proper enough play.

[Jim_Kennedy]

Bart,
Yes, you see this feature on a lot of older courses in the Northeast, and the effect on the ball is as Jeff Brauer said. I think it was also used around here as a less expensive alternative to bringing in fill as many greens like this in the NE are set into a down hill slope. A cut from the high side and a fill on the low side is a less expensive and less expansive process. On the ones I've played in this area the builders seem to have done a good job of directing the water away from, or out of the 'cut' area.

 

[Matt_Cohn]

Olympic Lake #1 has the same deal - a severe downslope about 15 or 20(?) yards short of the green, and OB about 5 paces past the green, on a reachable par 5. Picture anyone?

[Brad Tufts]

I think there are fewer of these features in the northeast where the slope leads right into the green itself.  I've seen many slopes down to a gree, but usually the slope bellies out right before the green.

#15 at Leatherstocking brings to mind another Travis course and hole, Cape Arundel's #17.  On this hole, there is a front tier that I've found is near impossible to stop a ball on...

[Yannick Pilon]

Heather Glen golf links in North Myrtle Beach has walls of sleepers that partially hide the front of the green.  The only catch is that the walls are sloped towards the green....  I beleive that Tom Doak mentionned them in his Confidential guide and gave the course a very low rating....

Not sure if this is a feature I would personnaly use, but it sure is original to me, and similar in concept to what is mentionned on this thread!!

Have a look:
http://www.glensgolfgroup.com/courses/heather-glen/course-layout/holeId=77

YP

[Anthony Fowler]

I agree with the others that this is an interesting feature.  10 at Wannamoisett is similar in front of the green (but no drop off behind the green).